Gay marriage debate centers on history vs. change

"Q E D, Seaglass", as Setanta tells me. I hope you have a great day everyone. I won't interrupt the thread again unless it is completely on topic.

Seaglass, and more pleasant than pissing in the wind :wink:

Momma, at the risk of reopening this thread to pertaining to you and your beliefs and your constant defense of them, it's the inconsistancy of your beliefs that are the issue with me. You state that you were against homosexuality and same-sex marriage before you became a Christian, and then hide behind the Christian bible for justification of your beliefs. I do not, for one second, think you are against same-sex marriage because Paul said you should have that opinion. I think you are against it, because you always have been against it and rather than admit to being a bigot you choose to hide behind your faith.

but then, at the same time, it's difficult to deny the bigotry of paul nor his assult on what might have carried on as "christianity"

J_B,

Just so you know, I have already (in this thread BTW) accepted the fact that my behavior can be called discriminatory and that I am wrong. Read a few of the postings J_B. I have been told it's the courteous thing to do before confronting someone.

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=69590&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=170

Perhaps going back a few pages might help you see how I did not want to make this about me and Lash rejected that so I gave her my answer. An honest answer, J_B.

Now, I'm done with this discussion. Please just leave me out of it.

You have the right to believe whatever you want to believe. You have the right to believe that Jews and blacks are inferior to white people, if that's what you choose to believe.

However, when you ACT upon your beliefs to impose unequal treatment upon the disfavored class of people, then you are discriminating against them.




You are wrong.

Discrimination has always meant and will always mean the unequal treatment of persons similarly situated.




How so?





Again, discrimination is the unequal treatment of persons similarly situated.

We can all agree that you have the right to BELIEVE anything you want to BELIEVE. However, when you ACT upon your beliefs to the detriment of a disfavored class of persons, you are discriminating.

Those who oppose unconstitutional discrimination against homosexual couples seeking to marry are NOT discriminating against you. The proponents of equal rights guaranteed by the Constitution are NOT attempting to prevent you, on the basis of your sexual orientation, from marrying the person of your choice.





Believe what you want to believe. If this is a matter between yourself and your God, then you must follow your conscience. If you think it is morally wrong to enter a committed relationship with a person of the same-sex, then don't do it.

However, when you ACT to prevent a homosexual person from marrying the same sex person of his choice, then you're putting your nose in other people's relationship/marital business. You are no longer following your philosophy that everyone should decide for themselves. YOU have made it YOUR mission to make the decision for everyone else--and to impose your religious/moral beliefs on others who do not share those beliefs.






Your denial is without merit. When people vote against same-sex marriage, they are discriminating against homosexuals. They are voting to impose their moral beliefs on others. They are abusing the power of the state to enforce the unequal treatment of persons similarly situtated. They are doing so in violation of the equal protection clause of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution.

Suppose a large group of people believe red-haired persons are the immoral spawn of satan. If they voted to deprive red-haired persons of the fundamental right to marry, they would be unconstitutionally discriminating against red-haired persons. The same holds true with respect to homosexuals.





So long as you're content with other people doing your dirty work--casting stones at homosexuals at the voting booth and depriving them of equal rights under the law--why bother to get your own hands dirty? Abstaining from the opportunity, that you claim is rightfully yours, to cast stones is very Christian of you. or NOT.






It's so wonderful that you temper your moral condemnation with a spoonful of love. How could your so-called friends possibly find fault with that?

Debra,

I have the highest and most utmost respect for you, I think you know that. So, I will glady accept from you quicker than anyone else some things. So, let me ask, if I may.

1.) If, just having a conversation about my beliefs is discriminating against anyone, then aren't I also being discriminated against or being denied my rights (not literally I understand) by being told essentially I shouldn't voice them? I do not actively participate in anything other than a discussion on this board and with friends about this issue. I have never gotten into a one on one argument with anyone that is gay or homosexual over this issue. I state how I believe and tell them that is their right to be what they are and all that. I don't have to agree with what they do to respect them or like them. I don't get to vote on this Debra. I don't get to go out there and put an X near any box on this issue, and I wouldn't if I got to. I'd abstain.

2) Debra, do you have friends or people that you know that do things you don't agree with? Don't you just accept that it is part of them and it's their life and you aren't going to hold it against them just because they act or view things differently than you? That is all it is. I am sure there is at least one thing about every single person in the world I would completely disagree with. So what? Does that mean I should then throw them out of my life? Debra, you and I are on opposite ends of this issue and I think you Rock! I'd be here all by myself!

Debra, I'm not casting stones. I am trying to find the right thing to do in this situation. For me, the right thing is not to completely change my views from what they are to that of yours and others with your views but to find some way of being able to maintain my principles/beliefs, whatever you wish to call it without directly affecting someone else.

It is how can I live with myself and not harm someone else while I maintain my beliefs. And, that is how I do it by abstaining.

I am sorry if you and others cannot see it that way.

It's been said a thousand times, but I'll try once more -- isn't it incumbent upon you to determine whether your beliefs are actually moral or correct rather than just clinging to them because they are your beliefs?

There are a number of things that make me ill, personally, that I nonetheless know are not actually wrong. I can't stand the thought of my parents having sex, but if they never did, I wouldn't be here...

There is having a belief, and there is being able to support the belief in some way. Merely having it is not, and shouldn't be, enough.

Sozobe,

See, the thing is. I don't have to support/justify/whatever you want to call it, my beliefs to you or anyone else. You don't have to support/justify/whatever you want to call it, your beliefs to me.

I'm not trying to convert anyone to what I believe. I'm only telling what I believe. I don't tell you that you are wrong and I don't feel it's right you should tell me I am wrong. Because to be 100% honest Sozobe, it's gonna probably be a while before any of us know 100% of the truth.

(And that you in that post was not meant you, as in sozobe. I hope you realize that.)

You DO have to justify your beliefs to yourself.

Why on earth would you hold a belief you can't justify?

Either you edited or I misread...

You don't have to justify anything to anyone else, no... you just won't get any credibility until you do.

Of course I read them. And I've avoided responding to them for the reasons I stated in my post above. I was hoping to show you the inconsistancy in your statements about having a long held belief and using a new found crutch as its defense. The walls of denial are thick indeed, Momma.

Sozobe,

If I believe it, then it obviously is justified to me. No, I used the word justify, you didn't. I said justify/support/whatever you want to call it, to cover all the bases.

Ok, so let me ask you this. If I don't find your beliefs justified/supported/whatever you would call it, by what you tell me, I should then find you without credit?

Isn't it more a matter of that's what you believe and this is what I believe and we should let each other believe the way we do? If we are not trying to convert each other to each other's way of thinking, why would credibility enter into it? That is when we start judging each other as being right or wrong, correct? I may think you are wrong, just as you may think I am wrong, but in reality, neither of us knows who really is right. We only know what is right concerning ourselves.

It's like this. I like you. I like a lot of things about you based on what you have posted. I don't agree with some of the things you have said or have said you believe. But, it does not detract from the fact that I like you. You and I just have differing beliefs and I don't find that fact that we differ enters into your credibility at all.

Yep, preachin to the choir, dys.

J_B,

Excuse me while I take the plank out of my own eye before I try removing a sliver from anyone else's.

Not really.

Not all beliefs are sacred simply because they are beliefs.

I have spend a lot of my life fighting against anachronistic, harmful beliefs; the belief that all Deaf people are stupid, for example.

That is just wrong. I don't hesitate to say so.

Sozobe,

Ok, in that context I have no problem with that. I am not asking you to view my views as sacred. I would not presume to ask anyone to go that far, as I have learned about that issue and can accept that with no problem.

What I do mean is when it gets to the point of using derogatory words and I'm speaking of the instances where it IS the person that is being attacked, then that is where I see the real breakdown in communication.

Just because you don't agree with someone's views/beliefs, it doesn't mean you should attack them for those views/beliefs, when if one would assume it's okay to do that, then we'd all be doing nothing but attacking each other because we felt each other was wrong or stupid, etc.

And I am definitely not including you in that scenario, sozobe. You have never that I can recall done this. That's why I am so curious about this. If you can do it, if I can do it, if others can do it, why make excuses for those that don't do it? Isn't that type of behavior harmful to others also?

Where have I made excuses?

Meanwhile, that's sidestepping the main point that I have been making, about the connection between lack of justification and lack of credibility.

The real breakdown in communication, IMO, is when reasonable questions -- why do you believe what you believe? -- are met with defensiveness and evasions.

sozobe,

I didn't mean YOU personally making excuses. It's hard to do this in paper and pen/screen and keyboard !

I don't know if you are talking about me being defensive and evasive or not. If you are, I have felt defensive at times, yes. I will tell you what I believe, think, and know. If I don't know, I usually say I don't know and will try to find an answer.

Sometimes I feel others think I am being evasive because I cannot answer the questions to their full satisfaction and I can understand that. I have evaded a few questions that I felt were baiting me, I won't deny that.

I was talking about you being defensive and evasive, yes. :-)

Telling me you don't have to justify your beliefs to me or anyone else, that kind of thing.

Of course you don't have to justify your beliefs, but if you refuse to, what ARE you saying? Why haven't you stopped talking about the subject? You're trying to have it too many ways at once.

Okay, I can understand that. Makes perfect sense to me.

What I mean by not having to justify my beliefs or you having to is not how I think when I engage in a conversation initially. Initially, to me it's just an exchange of views, etc.

Then, yes, it becomes defensive and justification when the derogatory words and the you're wrong starts coming into play. I think that's pretty common for most of us and I probably fall into that category more often than most. I won't deny that.

I am trying to learn to be non-defensive like that because I do not need to defend God though I have always felt I did need to. I do okay for awhile about it and then I fall back into it. But, I am trying.

Why haven't I stopped talking about the subject? Hmmm. Because I don't have all my questions answered yet. I have to work on the how to get them out there the right way. And, you're helping me with that. Yeah, I flinch a couple times at what you say, but if I flinch, then I am seeing something I need to see about me so it's all good.