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Gay marriage debate centers on history vs. change

 
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Mar, 2006 03:59 pm
OK. I'll look forward to the questions.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Mar, 2006 04:06 pm
The problem that so many people have with such a point of view, which is also the origin of contempt for those who present it, stems from the very nature of contentious discussions. When people vehemently disagree on emotionally-charged topics, it is axiomatic that each side believes the others to be wrong. There can be few scenarios as insipid as that we would all just show up for the party to say, well, this is what i think, take it or leave it. Of course everyone thinks that those who disagree with them are wrong, and they intend, in normal debate, to state why they believe those positions are wrong.

If one responds by attempting to claim that all opinions are equal, that's just what i believe, and that coupled with a contention that someone stating that someone else is wrong constitutes a personal attack, the entire possibility of reasonable debate is lost. Invincible ignorance is placed on a pedestal from which it is not to be toppled based on a contention that all opinions are equal.

All opinions are not equal. Uniformed opinions may actually come closer to the truth than well-informed opinions, although the odds against that are astronomical, and in the event, it would simply represent bizarre coincidence.

Uniformed opinions, bigoted opinions, doctrinaire opinions, any form of opinion which derives from preferences about what the truth would or should be, as opposed to opinions based upon good information and a sincere attempt to reject subjective desire in a search for the truth--are not opinions worth holding. They are also opinions which ultimately, sooner or later, and usually sooner rather than later, cannot be defended in debate. At that point, such opinions are usually only persevered in by an attempt to divert the discussion with accusations that one is being personally attacked when it is simply the idiotic pronouncements which are under attack.
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Mar, 2006 04:14 pm
Shocked And you said every bit of that in an honest, intelligent, unoffensive manner. Kudos. I sincerely mean that, Setanta. That is the you that I had respect for.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Mar, 2006 04:22 pm
I've never been dishonest in addressing you. Whether or not my posts contain intelligent remarks is not for me to say, and whether or not someone takes offense at the content of my posts is a matter of indifference to me.

I have no interest in your respect, i have none for you.
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JPB
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Mar, 2006 04:23 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
J_B,

Excuse me while I take the plank out of my own eye before I try removing a sliver from anyone else's.


Was that supposed to have some meaning?

Beyond quoting Matthew 7:4, that is.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Mar, 2006 04:26 pm
It is a reference to the biblical injunction to remove the beam from one's own eye before attempting to remove the mote from someone else's eye. In short, MOAN was copping to hypocricy . . .
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Mar, 2006 04:36 pm
In short, I was telling you, J_B, that I was not going to resort to bantering back and forth with you about things we both felt about the other because I am not without flaw in my own life so I have no right to point out to you what I think might be your flaws. I am a bit put out with you right now, yes. But, that doesn't give me the right to attack you because of it.

Setanta, I meant that as a compliment. So gracious of you to take it that way. I did not mean that you had never been honest and I think you know that. You actually proved my point for me. Civility CAN be accomplished if one takes responsibility for their own actions and carrys through on it.

Now, I am leaving this conversation, as it is way off topic and I'm not going to be responsible for continually keeping it that way.
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seaglass
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Mar, 2006 04:40 pm
Dawn over Marblehead
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JPB
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Mar, 2006 04:46 pm
That's what I thought you meant. I have flaws aplenty, MA. And if any of them pertain to the prevention of all people having the same civil liberties then I would be happy to discuss them with you.
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Mar, 2006 04:48 pm
...so I'm not going to see those questions after all...?
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Mar, 2006 04:51 pm
Sozobe,

Yes, I will get back with you on this once I calm down a bit. I'm a bit ticked off (not at you) and I'm not going to take it out on anyone else. I'm sorry for getting off topic.
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seaglass
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Mar, 2006 04:58 pm
Momma Angel,

If you are going to continue to do on-line gay bashing why don't you start your own thread.

I don't know if you noticed but this is BBB's thread that you are monoplizing
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Mar, 2006 05:02 pm
And some wonder why I get upset? I get upset because I'm honest and I tell you how I feel. I tell you the truth. I could lie and say I agree with you and be all friendly, and etc., but I don't.

When I tell you how I feel and believe I get I am gay bashing and oh no, what you just said you believe is not what you really believe, you're in denial (not an exact quote but I think you get my drift.)

And I didn't realize this was BBB's thread so I definitely owe her an apology and hope she will take this post as one.

So Seaglass, J_B, Setanta, shall I now call you religious bashing because you don't agree with me? Rolling Eyes
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Mar, 2006 05:03 pm
Who cares if MOAN is ticked-off? I want no "compliments" from her. It is typical that she would condescend in such a manner and characterize it as complimenting someone. I have no reason to be civil to those who lie to me, and create unnecessary grief for those whom i do like and respect. Seaglass' remark about a gay-bashing thread is very much on point, and very ironic when juxtaposed with MOAN's comments about taking responsibility for one's own actions and carrying through . . .
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Mar, 2006 05:07 pm
ARE YOU GOING TO BRING UP LIES AGAIN? YOU ARE BEING A COWARD (IMO) BY NOT ADDRESSING WHAT YOU POSTED OF ME ABOUT ME STEALING AND KILLING FOR JESUS! HYPOCRISY!???? Rolling Eyes

(Caps for emphasis only)
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JPB
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Mar, 2006 05:11 pm
I think Lash might be disappointed by being left off the list of offenders.

Momma, if you find me offensive because I see your position as one routed in bigotry, then so be it. Guilty as charged!
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Mar, 2006 05:14 pm
You can stop shouting. I did not ever state that you've stolen or killed for Jesus. I don't doubt that you could justify such behavior in your own mind, but i've made no such accusation.
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Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Mar, 2006 05:44 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
1.) If, just having a conversation about my beliefs is discriminating against anyone, then aren't I also being discriminated against or being denied my rights (not literally I understand) by being told essentially I shouldn't voice them?


You have a qualified right, protected by the First Amendment from GOVERNMENT infringement, to spew words from your mouth or to write things on a discussion board that other people might find reprehensible and disagreeable. Your speech, however, is not protected from the criticism of other persons or from sanctions that might be imposed by the forum's owner for violating the discussion forum's TOS.

"The First Amendment generally prevents government from proscribing speech, or even expressive conduct, because of disapproval of the ideas expressed. Content-based regulations are presumptively invalid."

R. A. V. vs. CITY OF ST. PAUL, MINNESOTA, 505 U.S. 377 (1992).
http://laws.findlaw.com/us/505/377.html

The GOVERNMENT is not intruding in this discussion or requiring you to silence your voice under the penalty of some law. Accordingly, your right to voice your opinion or your beliefs is not being violated. The fact that other people find your expressed opinions or beliefs to be reprehensible or disagreeable or discriminatory does NOT violate your rights.


Quote:
I do not actively participate in anything other than a discussion on this board and with friends about this issue. I have never gotten into a one on one argument with anyone that is gay or homosexual over this issue. I state how I believe and tell them that is their right to be what they are and all that. I don't have to agree with what they do to respect them or like them. I don't get to vote on this Debra. I don't get to go out there and put an X near any box on this issue, and I wouldn't if I got to. I'd abstain.



It is your belief that homosexuality is immoral and wrong.

I will never understand this kind of intolerant, moralistic animus toward other human beings based solely on their sexual orientation. Just because they are different than you, that doesn't make them immoral beings nor does it make their sexual conduct immoral. It just makes them different and that difference doesn't make them deserving of moral condemnation.

Your belief, couched in religion, is incomprehensible and unreasonable and unnecessarily discriminatory. If God truly exists, then He embraces all of his children, homosexual and heterosexual alike. When your time comes to pass over into the light, I believe that God will set you straight. God will let you know that he did not approve of your moral condemnation of his children on earth. That is my opinion. And, we will have to disagree. But, I bet you a million bucks that God isn't going to pat you on the back and say, "good job, Momma . . . I'm glad you morally disapproved of homosexuals and made them feel like second-class citizens because they were different from you."

So, you voice your opinion. I voice my opinion. And we disagree.

And when you claim that people have the right to go to the voting booth and express their moral beliefs by casting their votes to deny homosexuals equal protection under the law, then we're going to disagree again. The fact that you volunteer to abstain from casting your vote to discriminate against homosexuals doesn't alter our disagreement.




Quote:
2) Debra, do you have friends or people that you know that do things you don't agree with?


One of my best friends cast her vote in a state election to amend our state Constitution to prohibit same-sex marriages. Prior to her telling me about her vote, I had no idea how hateful she was in her religious beliefs. I can never accept that she applied those unreasonable beliefs to discriminate against others. My disappointment in her as a human being is so overwhelming that our friendship has ceased to be important to me.


Quote:
Don't you just accept that it is part of them and it's their life and you aren't going to hold it against them just because they act or view things differently than you? That is all it is.


No. I don't accept hatred, bigotry, animosity, and moral condemnations of an entire class of people as being an inherent part of my friends. I don't socialize with Ku Klux Klan members; I don't socialize with neo-nazi believers; and I don't socialize with people who use God's name as an excuse to morally condemn those who are different.

Quote:
Debra, I'm not casting stones. I am trying to find the right thing to do in this situation. For me, the right thing is not to completely change my views from what they are to that of yours and others with your views but to find some way of being able to maintain my principles/beliefs, whatever you wish to call it without directly affecting someone else.

It is how can I live with myself and not harm someone else while I maintain my beliefs. And, that is how I do it by abstaining.

I am sorry if you and others cannot see it that way.



Well, you are casting stones. When you morally condemn an entire class of people because their sexual orientation is different from your sexual orientation, you are casting stones.

You don't have to believe what I believe. You can believe whatever you want. My disappointment in you should be of no concern to you if you truly believe that the God you worship has condemned homosexuality as a sin.

I am just thankful that our Constitution works (even though it works ever so slowly), to extend equal protection under the law to disfavored classes of persons.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Mar, 2006 05:47 pm
It is significant to any discussion of homosexuality into which MOAN pokes her nose that she has stated on more than one occasion that she thought homosexuality to be "wrong" before she became an animated bible thumper.

I infer from that a heterosexual bigotry which runs very deep.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Mar, 2006 05:50 pm
Setanta,

I will find your exact words. You know and I know that you made it very clear that you believed I would steal and kill for Jesus. You have repeatedly ignored it since you said it. I'll find it though. Then tell me you didn't say it, imply it, or whatever you want to call it.

J_B,

I'm not offended because you have a problem with my position. Not offended by that at all. What I am offended by is the fact that it seems to be such a deciding factor in whether you would continue a typing/conversation relationship with someone. I could certainly understand it if I was beating up homosexuals, picketing their homes, etc. Yeah, I could see it then. But, since I only have discussions and I disagree with you about it, just doesn't make much sense to take such a turn on someone. It hurts, ya know. That's honest. It really hurts.
0 Replies
 
 

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