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Nuking Iran

 
 
Zippo
 
Reply Sat 18 Feb, 2006 11:57 am
Nuking Iran: A Chorus to Catastrophe

AG - Immanuel Wallerstein - There are today nine countries known to possess nuclear weapons -- the United States, Great Britain, Russia, France, China, Israel, India, Pakistan, and North Korea. What would change if Iran became the tenth? Who would be menaced by Iran? Which country might they bomb?

www.agenceglobal.com

Why is the United States so agitated about Iran's nuclear ambitions? Some people in high places seem to be serious about engaging in military action to stop Iran from securing nuclear weapons, so we have to ask why is this so important, and so important to whom?

---------

Iran and the Bomb
Immanuel Wallerstein


Agence Global
February 15, 2006


Much of the discussion about Iran's nuclear program is quite simply hysterical. Witness the statement of Sen. John McCain just this month: "There's only one thing worse than military action and that's a nuclear-armed Iran." One is tempted to respond with Shakespeare's title, "Much ado about nothing," except that there's an awful lot of "ado" and some people in high places seem to be serious about engaging in military action to stop Iran from securing nuclear weapons. So we have to ask why is this so important, and so important to whom?

First of all, why should we consider it to be a catastrophe if tomorrow Iran has nuclear weapons? There are today nine countries known to possess nuclear weapons -- the United States, Great Britain, Russia, France, China, Israel, India, Pakistan, and North Korea. What would change if Iran became the tenth? Who would be menaced by Iran? Which country might they bomb? At the present time, there is no indication of any kind that Iran is or intends to be militarily aggressive. To be sure, the current president of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, has made very hostile statements about Israel. But does anyone think he intends to bomb Israel, or that Iran has the military capacity to effectively do so at any point in the near future? Rhetoric and intentions are two different things.

But if Iran doesn't intend to use the bomb, why would Iran want to have it? There are some obvious reasons. Of the nine countries that have the bomb, all but one has the capability of reaching Iran with their warheads. The Iranian government would have to be very naive not to worry about this. Furthermore, they can easily deduce from U.S. policy of the last five years that the United States invaded Iraq but not North Korea, and that one of the greatest differences between the two was that Iraq did not have nuclear weapons and that North Korea did.

A second obvious reason is Iranian nationalism. We must remember that Iranian aspirations to be a nuclear power did not start with the current president. They go all the way back before the Iranian revolution to the days of the Shah of Iran. Obviously, today a "middle" power of the size of Iran will enhance its geopolitical strength if it's a member of the nuclear club. Iran has its national interests, as all other states do, and it clearly wishes to play a central role in its region.

But does this in itself menace the peace of the world or of the region? When the Soviet Union had its first nuclear explosion in 1949, the lamentations of the Western world were very loud. But it is clear in retrospect that the single factor which most contributed to the non-occurrence of an American-Soviet war from 1949 to the dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1991 was the fact that both powers had nuclear weapons. It was the fear of mutual destruction that guaranteed that neither would use nuclear weapons, despite all the acute tensions from the Berlin blockade to the Cuban so-called missile crisis to the war in Afghanistan. The fact that both India and Pakistan have the bomb has been a very strong constraint on their conflict over Kashmir.

Why would not the balance of terror operate equally well in the Middle East? Why would not the possession by Iran of nuclear weapons be an element in pacifying the Middle East rather than the reverse? The only answer offered is that the Iranian government is not sufficiently "rational" to abstain from using the bomb. But this is clearly nonsense -- racist nonsense, one should add. The present Iranian regime is at least as politically sophisticated as the Bush regime, and is a lot less vocally militarist.

Then, why is everyone making so much fuss? Henry Kissinger explained it over a year ago and Thomas Friedman has recently repeated it in The New York Times. It is quite clear that, once Iran has nuclear weapons, the dike will have been breached, and a good 10-15 other countries will work very fast to acquire such weapons. There are some obvious candidates: South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Indonesia, Egypt, Iraq (yes, Iraq), South Africa, Brazil, Argentina, and many European countries. In 2015, there may be twenty-five nuclear powers.

Is this dangerous? Of course it is, in the sense that there are always crazy individuals and groups who might get access to the buttons that need to be pushed. But these crazy people or groups exist in the present nine nuclear countries and I personally do not believe there are more of them in the next fifteen. Nuclear disarmament is an objective that is urgent, but not nuclear disarmament of just part of the world -- nuclear disarmament of everyone.

The reason that the United States in particular is so agitated about Iran's potential nuclear armament is that the spread of nuclear weapons to so-called middle countries clearly reduces the military strength of the United States. But that doesn't mean that it threatens the peace of the world. Should we then worry about an invasion of Iran by the United States or an Israeli attack? Not really, because the U.S. does not now have the military strength to engage in such an attack, because the Iraqi regime would not support it, and because Israel can't do it alone.

So, much ado about nothing.

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detano inipo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Feb, 2006 03:36 pm
The US is the nation with the largest nuclear arsenal. It is the only nation that has dropped 'the bomb' on another country. It's president talks to God.

It is understandable that other nations want the bomb as an insurance against the US (see Korea).

Iran is driven by religion and hatred, a dangerous combination. Once it has the bomb, it might feel safe and not attack anyone.

But the hatred factor kicks in and a nuclear device could easily be given to terrorists.

The world cannot allow this to happen.
0 Replies
 
Zippo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Feb, 2006 05:29 pm
Q&A: Israel's Atomic Program and Mideast Peace

By LIONEL BEEHNER
Published: February 15, 2006


Introduction

A resolution by the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) Board of Governors to refer Iran to the UN Security Council over its nuclear program was delayed because of a clause inserted by Egypt calling for a nuclear-weapons-free Middle East. The clause was directed at Israel, which over the past five decades has developed a nuclear-weapons program but has neither denied nor admitted the existence of its nuclear arsenal; Israelis call this "strategic ambiguity." Unlike Iran, however, Israel is not a signatory of the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty (NPT) and, as such, technically does not have to abide by nuclear anti-proliferation conventions. But as diplomatic pressure intensifies on Iran, new attention has been focused on Israel's nuclear capabilities and the challenges its program poses for peace in the Middle East.

What is the capacity of Israel's nuclear program?

It's a widely held belief among arms-control experts that Israel began its nuclear program in the mid-1950s. One estimate, by the Federation of American Scientists (FAS), puts its arsenal at around 200 nuclear warheads, which would make Israel the sixth-largest nuclear power. These warheads can be launched by air (F-16s and F-15Es), by ground (intermediate-range ballistic missiles like the Jericho II), or by sea (U.S.-made Harpoon missiles based on diesel-powered submarines or ships). Experts say Israeli missiles can reach Libya, Iran, or Russia. It is also believed Israel possesses at least 100 bunker-busting bombs--so-called mini-nukes--which are laser-guided and capable of penetrating underground targets like nuclear labs or storage facilities for weapons of mass destruction (WMD).

How do we know about Israel's nuclear program?

American U-2 spy planes in 1958 confirmed the existence of Israel's Dimona nuclear complex, located in the Negev desert. U.S. inspections of Israeli nuclear sites in the 1960s proved largely fruitless because of restrictions placed on the inspectors. Instead, much of what the outside world knows about Israel's nuclear capabilities came from Mordechai Vanunu, a nuclear technician who worked at Dimona and leaked details of the program to the British press in 1986. For his actions, he was sentenced for treason and espionage and spent eighteen years behind bars in Israel, eleven of them in solitary confinement.

Why did Israel embark on a nuclear-weapons program?

"Because of the [military] asymmetries between itself and its neighbors," says Shlomo Brom, a veteran of the Israel Defense Force and visiting scholar at the U.S. Institute of Peace. Israel has sought an "ultimate deterrent" to protect itself stretching back to the mid-1950s (its first bomb was believed to have been developed sometime before 1968), shortly after then-Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser closed the Straits of Tiran, Israel's main shipping outlet to the Red Sea. Israel's weapons program "grew out of the conviction that the Holocaust justified any measures Israel took to ensure its survival," according to the FAS. Experts point to Israel's Arab neighbors' alleged biological and chemical weapons programs as threats that justify its nuclear arsenal. In the 1990s, the development of nuclear weapons and ballistic missiles by Pakistan and North Korea raised the likelihood, in Israeli eyes, of such weapons falling into the hands of its enemies. Iran's more recent moves to enrich uranium, coupled with its president's calls to wipe Israel "off the map," present perhaps the greatest justification for Israel's nuclear program, experts say. A nuclear-armed Iran would likely have more confidence to fund terrorists groups opposed to Israel, says Henry Sokolski, executive director of the Nonproliferation Policy Education Center.


Why is Israel deliberately vague about its nuclear arsenal?

Primarily for deterrence purposes, experts say. Charles Ferguson II, a science and technology fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, says Israel "has done the calculation that if it removes its ambiguity it may stimulate other states to acquire nuclear-weapon capabilities." Its ambiguous nuclear posture is also smart from a geo-strategic standpoint, Brom says. "Israel gets the benefit of being perceived as a nuclear power while at the same time not enduring potential punishment [by the international community]."

Is Israel likely to give up its nuclear program?

Not in the near future, experts say. In July 2004, the IAEA's director general urged Israel to abandon its nuclear program as part of regional arms-control talks. Though Israel balks whenever the subject is raised, it has said it would not be the first country in the Middle East to formally introduce nuclear weapons into the region. Israel, moreover, is on record as supporting a WMD-free Middle East. But conditions by Israel would be stringent, experts say. First, there must be "comprehensive peace" with its Arab neighbors, including the Palestinians. Second, Israel's neighbors, including Egypt, Syria, and Saudi Arabia, would have to verifiably dismantle their suspected chemical and biological weapons programs.

What does Israel's nuclear capability mean for the Middle East?

Arab states, particularly Egypt, often shift attention at nuclear arms control conferences toward Israel's nuclear stockpile and raise the issue of achieving a nuclear-free Middle East. According to Joseph Cirincione, director for non-proliferation at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, most weapons programs in the Middle East began in direct response to Israel's decision to go nuclear in the 1950s and 1960s. "Everyone already knows about Israel's bombs in the closet," he wrote in a March 2005 article in The Globalist . "Bringing them out into the open and putting them on the table as part of a regional deal may be the only way to prevent others from building their own bombs in their basements." But Brom is less certain. The main motivation, for example, behind Iran's nuclear program is not Israel, he says, but "the prestige in acquiring the status of a nuclear power." Iran's alleged nuclear program is motivated more by the perceived threat of the United States than Israel, says Ray Takeyh, senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, writing in an August 2005 International Herald Tribune op-ed. Because Israel and Iran have no territorial disputes and Israel has never threatened Iran from a nuclear standpoint, he writes, "Tehran has the luxury of viewing Israel as an ideological affront rather than a military challenge."


Is a nuclear-free Middle East a realistic vision?

This idea, first proposed by Egypt and Iran in a 1974 UN General Assembly resolution, faces numerous obstacles. Because of recent elections of Hamas in the Palestinian territories and the nuclear showdown over Iran, Brom says a nuclear-free Middle East "will not happen anytime in the close future." Flynt Leverett, senior fellow at the Brookings Institution, is more hopeful. In a New York Times op-ed, he points to recent remarks on the subject by Saudi Arabia's foreign minister: "His implication that a nuclear-weapons-free Gulf might precede a region-wide nuclear-weapons-free zone is a nuanced departure from longstanding Arab insistence that regional arms control cannot begin without Israel's denuclearization." If the region were to relinquish its WMDs, the country most at risk would be Israel, experts say. Bennett Ramberg, who served in the State Department under then-President George H. W. Bush, in a May/June 2004 article in the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, suggested that membership for Israel in the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) might mitigate Israeli insecurity. Others, however, say this is unrealistic, given misgivings about Israeli policies among some NATO members. On February 10, Israel's Ambassador to Germany, Shimon Stein, told Reuters "Israel has a great interest now in qualitatively upgrading its relations with NATO."

Is Israel capable of knocking out Iran's nuclear capabilities?

In the event of a military attack, experts foresee a limited air attack by Israel, similar to its attack against Iraq's Osirak nuclear facility in 1981. But Iran poses a greater challenge than Iraq did--its nuclear sites are more fortified and scattered throughout the country, many of them underground. Employing its F-15s, Israel could probably take out several of Iran's nuclear sites, including Isfahan and Natanz, but not all, experts say. While such a strike would delay Iran's nuclear capabilities, it would not eradicate its nuclear ambitions, says CFR's Ferguson. "I'm leaning more toward the idea that [the Iranians] are so committed to this program, they won't give it up by threat of military force," he says.


What is the likelihood of a nuclear arms race in the Middle East?

According to recent workshops by the U.S. Army's Strategic Studies Institute, if Iran's nuclear program were left unchecked, this could encourage Tehran's Arab neighbors and Turkey either to seek nuclear capabilities of their own (i.e. Israel) or to import nuclear technologies (i.e. Saudi Arabia). Ferguson says this could set off a "lukewarm arms race," but adds it would take Iran--or any state in the region--decades to match Israel's level of nuclear warheads. Instead, Ferguson predicts that, in response to a nuclear-weapons-capable Iran, some Arab states and Turkey might "try to use the NPT as a cover to acquire at least the capability to break out into nuclear weapons development."

http://www.nytimes.com/cfr/international/slot2_021506.html
0 Replies
 
detano inipo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Feb, 2006 10:44 pm
Israel needs a nuclear threat capability. It is surrounded by nations that have vowed to destroy it.

That is reason enough to be armed to the teeth. No peace talks will ever lead to peace down there.

I feel sorry for the Israelis, they don't deserve to live in fear after they have suffered for centuries.
0 Replies
 
pachelbel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Feb, 2006 11:54 pm
You might ask yourself WHY nations have vowed to destroy it. Maybe do a bit of research.

Why they should get away with being terrorists is beyond me.

But hey, feel sorry for them all you like. God has given up on them, thus the Diaspora. They will never find a homeland - that's God's promise. If you believe in God. But they will keep trying to take over someone else's homeland (the Arabs -700,000 of them who were there well before the Jews).

The US feels some sort of obligation to protect Israel, even though the Jews don't think Jesus was the son of God. The born agains are confused. I think they feel if they don't protect Israel that God will come and get em, or the world will end, some twisted thinking there.
Whatever
0 Replies
 
detano inipo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Feb, 2006 08:29 am
Pachelbel, since I am an atheist, I don't get confused over some god or some stories in some holy books.

Anyone who knows about the persecution of Jews during the last centuries should have compassion for them.

They have suffered more than any minority. At the same time they have contributed to more to civilisation than any other minority on earth.
0 Replies
 
Zippo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Feb, 2006 11:41 am
detano inipo wrote:
At the same time they have contributed to more to civilisation than any other minority on earth.


Example
0 Replies
 
detano inipo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Feb, 2006 11:52 am
Throughout the 20th century, Jews, more so than any other minority, ethnic or cultural group, have been recipients of the Nobel Prize -- perhaps the most distinguished award for human endeavor in the six fields for which it is given. Remarkably, Jews constitute almost one-fifth of all Nobel laureates. This, in a world in which Jews number just a fraction of 1 percent of the population.

It is ironic that this international recognition has rewarded Jewish accomplishment in the same century that witnessed pogroms, the Holocaust, and wars that killed millions for no other reason than that they were Jewish. Certainly the Nobel Prize was not awarded to Jews because they were entitled to it, were smarter or better educated than everyone else, or because they were typically over-represented in the six fields honored by the award.

Rather, all Nobel laureates have earned their distinction in a traditionally fierce competition among the best and the brightest, although politics and controversy have not infrequently followed in the wake of the Nobel.

http://www.bibletopics.com/biblestudy/147.htm

http://www.yahoodi.com/famous/nobel1.html
0 Replies
 
detano inipo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Feb, 2006 12:08 pm
To pick one or more criminals from one ethnic group and paint that group of people criminal is not logic.

http://carpenoctem.tv/killers/
0 Replies
 
Zippo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Feb, 2006 12:09 pm
Thanks for that detano,

This confirms my belief that, only the most intelligent persons, could pull off the most sophisticated intelligence operation in world history.

i.e, the Jews.
0 Replies
 
detano inipo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Feb, 2006 12:16 pm
I rest my case.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Feb, 2006 03:09 pm
pachelbel



Chew on this for a while.
 

All European life died in  Auschwitz.
By Sebastian Vilar Rodrigez(*)
I walked down the street in Barcelona, and suddenly discovered a terrible truth - Europe died in  Auschwitz.


We killed six million Jews and replaced them with 20 million Muslims.  In Auschwitz we burned a culture, thought, creativity, talent.  We destroyed the chosen people, truly chosen, because they produced great and wonderful
people who changed the world.


The contribution of this people is felt in all areas of life: science, art, international trade, and above all, as the conscience of the world.  These are the people we burned.


And under the pretense of tolerance, and because we wanted to prove to ourselves that we were cured of the disease of racism, we opened our gates to 20 million Muslims, who brought us stupidity and ignorance, religious extremism and lack of tolerance, crime and poverty due to an unwillingness
to work and support their families with pride.


They have turned our beautiful Spanish cities into the third world, drowning in filth and crime.


Shut up in the apartments they receive free from the government, they plan the murder and destruction of their naive hosts.


And thus, in our misery, we have exchanged culture for fanatical hatred, creative skill for destructive skill, intelligence for backwardness and superstition.  We have exchanged the pursuit of peace of the Jews of Europe and their talent for hoping for a better future for their children, their determined clinging to life because life is holy, for those who pursue
death, for people consumed by the desire for death for themselves and others, for our children and theirs.


What a terrible mistake was made by miserable Europe.


I doubt that there would be any loss if your etnnic group were wiped out.
0 Replies
 
Zippo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Feb, 2006 04:09 pm
Ooh au1929,

Dont cry, you can undo the damage by having an Islamic holocaust. :wink:

And bring the Jews back to europe...

Quote:
IRNA quoted Ahmadinejad as saying.

"Although we don't accept this claim, if we suppose it is true, our question for the Europeans is: is the killing of innocent Jewish people by Hitler the reason for their support to the occupiers of Jerusalem?" he said.

"If the Europeans are honest they should give some of their provinces in Europe — like in Germany, Austria or other countries — to the Zionists and the Zionists can establish their state in Europe. You offer part of Europe and we will support it."
The BBC:
"You oppressed them, so give a part of Europe to the Zionist regime so they can establish any government they want," he said on a visit to Mecca.

source
0 Replies
 
detano inipo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Feb, 2006 06:28 pm
If Hitler would have carried out his plan to send all European Jews to Madagascar, millions of Jews would have been saved.
The Jewish state would now be a peaceful paradise without any enemies.

http://history1900s.about.com/library/holocaust/aa071299.htm
0 Replies
 
paull
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Feb, 2006 07:51 pm
No doubt the Madagascarino insurgents would now be hijacking airliners had they done that.

The problem with Wallerstein's opinion is that if Iran gets the bomb and the other marginal countries do as well (I think they call that a DOMINO effect), there is an exponential increase in the likelyhood that the weapons won't be secure. The good old cold war was between big dogs with lots of dough to ensure that nothing was screwed up, because mutally ensured destruction was a great deterrent. The new funky countries might change course frequently, and handing over the keys to the armory won't be as neat as before.

As for

"the spread of nuclear weapons to so-called middle countries clearly reduces the military strength of the United States"

That is true, in that nukes will inevitably fall into the hands of terrorists due to lack of control by the new funky countries. And since terrorists "fight" by killing civilians, their "military" strength will be enhanced. However, any country with a government and a nuke will be no better off than before. They will know that an appropriate number of US missles are targeted upon them.

I actually think Iran should be able to do what they want. But, having agreed not to produce weapons, they should be held to that. Like John Wayne said, a deal is a deal.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Feb, 2006 08:51 pm
paull wrote:
Like John Wayne said, a deal is a deal.


Yeah! Like the US' Anti-Ballistic Missile treaty deal with the Russians.
0 Replies
 
pachelbel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2006 01:08 am
au1929 wrote:
pachelbel



Chew on this for a while.
 

All European life died in  Auschwitz.
By Sebastian Vilar Rodrigez(*)
I walked down the street in Barcelona, and suddenly discovered a terrible truth - Europe died in  Auschwitz.


We killed six million Jews and replaced them with 20 million Muslims.  In Auschwitz we burned a culture, thought, creativity, talent.  We destroyed the chosen people, truly chosen, because they produced great and wonderful
people who changed the world.


The contribution of this people is felt in all areas of life: science, art, international trade, and above all, as the conscience of the world.  These are the people we burned.


And under the pretense of tolerance, and because we wanted to prove to ourselves that we were cured of the disease of racism, we opened our gates to 20 million Muslims, who brought us stupidity and ignorance, religious extremism and lack of tolerance, crime and poverty due to an unwillingness
to work and support their families with pride.


They have turned our beautiful Spanish cities into the third world, drowning in filth and crime.


Shut up in the apartments they receive free from the government, they plan the murder and destruction of their naive hosts.


And thus, in our misery, we have exchanged culture for fanatical hatred, creative skill for destructive skill, intelligence for backwardness and superstition.  We have exchanged the pursuit of peace of the Jews of Europe and their talent for hoping for a better future for their children, their determined clinging to life because life is holy, for those who pursue
death, for people consumed by the desire for death for themselves and others, for our children and theirs.


What a terrible mistake was made by miserable Europe.


I doubt that there would be any loss if your etnnic group were wiped out.


Yes, and you've exchanged a lot of money, too, haven't you? Laughing


I think God, being as HE created everyone, doesn't extol one group of people over another. That's your misconception and a big reason Jews are not universally liked. Your ethnocentricity is sickening and quite backwards.


The Jews whine an awful lot, considering what other cultures have endured.

USSR: 20 million murdered under Stalin's reign.
CHINA: under Mao, 30 million killed, mainly in the Great Leap Forward
SUDAN: Mass murders continue today in the Darfur region.
IRAQ: perhaps 200,000 killed under Saddam

3-6 million Jews, perhaps, murdered (accounts differ, depending on whether you believe most of them were safe in NY or LA.)

3 million Irish allowed to starve by the English.

I think that's the main reason why Jews keep getting booted out of other people's country's: they suffer from a superiority complex: we're CHOSEN. God doesn't see you that way, however. That is why the Gentiles were included.

Jews were thrown out of every country, including Spain. Historically, Pre 1945, Jews were treated much better by the Moslems than the Christians.

Still chewing? Should be a toughie to swallow for a fanatic.
0 Replies
 
pachelbel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2006 01:11 am
detano inipo wrote:
If Hitler would have carried out his plan to send all European Jews to Madagascar, millions of Jews would have been saved.
The Jewish state would now be a peaceful paradise without any enemies.

http://history1900s.about.com/library/holocaust/aa071299.htm



So the people who lived in Madagascar, called aboriginals, meaning it is their native land, would have just rolled over and given the Jews THEIR land? pleeaassseeeee
don't make me laugh @ your ignorance
0 Replies
 
pachelbel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2006 01:17 am
Zippo wrote:
Thanks for that detano,

This confirms my belief that, only the most intelligent persons, could pull off the most sophisticated intelligence operation in world history.

i.e, the Jews.



DITTO, Zippo. They control the media, etc., poor persecuted homosapiens that they are. Aren't most of them lawyers, as well? Not to mention politicians.....Wolfowitz (Jew), Kissinger (Jew), etc etc. Oh, forgot to mention Sharon known as the 'butcher of Lebanon" who as commander of Israeli forces looked the other way while Christians slaughtered Moslems in southern Lebanon.

Shining examples of humanity, wouldn't you say?
0 Replies
 
detano inipo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Feb, 2006 07:34 am
This thread is about nuclear weapons in Iran.

It has turned into a racist, anti-semitic shouting match.

I am out of here; anti-semitism is not my cup of tea.
0 Replies
 
 

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