Can You Make Me See Red?

nimh,

Can you explain red to me so that I can experience it. Remember, I am colorblind.

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aktorist wrote:

But in the process, Angel uses much faulty logic.

<nods>

And us addressing that exact faulty logic doesn't mean we "just dont understand what she's trying to say" - it means she's using faulty logic <shrugs>

(which, to people who spend their time arguing on a board, is perhaps the severest sin of all Razz

)

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And I've been trying to say that you cannot make a person see red as a person have a conception of the number zero. They're abstract. And you can't compare them with experiences with god. You can compare it with a table perhaps.

You can't compare abstract concepts with physical constructs. This is exactly what Angel is trying to do.

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Momma Angel wrote:

nimh,

Can you explain red to me so that I can experience it. Remember, I am colorblind.

I already answered this question when Intrepid asked it, MA (link).

(The question also totally misses the point, btw. It's not about me being able to explain; it's about the blind, colorblind or deaf being able to find out. Yes, they can, even if not everyone of us happens to have the full range of description they'd need at our fingertips (duh).)

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(Edited the above post for clarity and brevity)

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http://web4.ehost-services.com/el2ton1/frusty.gif

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nimh, I find it utterly lacking. Use mine instead.

Quote:

You can't compare abstract concepts with physical constructs. This is exactly what Angel is trying to do.

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Momma Angel wrote:

nimh,

Can you explain red to me so that I can experience it. Remember, I am colorblind.

Are red things invisible to you? If not, you experience red. It just may not be the same as the next person's red.

P

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I think we are getting there now.

Momma, are you starting to see red ??

Wink

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I am colorblind; therefore, I do not see the color red. No one has been able to make me see the color red. I have not experienced/seen the color red.

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I was joking Momma, I meant "see red" as in losing your temper.

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Eorl wrote:

I was joking Momma, I meant "see red" as in losing your temper.

No, not seeing red that way either. I have the hardest time picking up jokes on these posts.

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Yeah, the lack of voice inflection always makes it hard.

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Howdy Momma

Three arguments/refutations/thoughts:

1.
I can never see anything through anyones eyes except my own.

Ergo, you do not perceive what I perceive.

Therefore none of you exist.

2.
Red itself is an abstract concept. It just a band of frequencies in the electromagnetic spectrum. Colourblind people can see red it just happens to look the same as what other people call brown or green.

3.
I don't believe in God because I have not experienced her. Why hasn't God shown herself to me? What did I do wrong? Why does she show herself to some and not others? The bitch plays favourites! I thought she loved all mankind....

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Momma,

(I cant resist jumping into this...)....
Are you trying to say just this much - "One cannot necesarily explain all of one's experiences to another". In that case, I quite agree with you.

But I think you are further trying to state that -"just as color blind cannot see red, you blind atheists are unable to see God".

This is where your analogy is faulty. Red is proven by means other than us seeing/experiencing it. God is "proven" only by believers seeing/experiencing it. The fallacy in your analogy lies there.

If everybody's experiences were "true" - there would too many contradictory truths...which is not possible. Your experience simply remains - your experience.

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Momma Angel wrote:

I am colorblind; therefore, I do not see the color red. No one has been able to make me see the color red. I have not experienced/seen the color red.

You are just totally - wilfully, because it would refute your point? - ignoring what we are saying.

If, as a colorblind person, you'd taken any of the steps that we described as being open for you to find out about red, then you would easily have had an experience of red, even if it would not have been the same as the next person's.

You most certainly gain a concept of red; it would exist to you.

All of this would be a refutal of the point you insist in keeping on asserting: that Red can not exist to you, as a colorblind person, in the same way that we, as non-believers, just cant have a concept of (your) God.

And yes, perhaps, as a colorblind person, you would have to look up some things that not just any random fellow seeing person - like us - are able to provide you with at will. It might have taken a bit more than a couple of hours on a random Sunday night. None of which says absolute F-all about it being impossible.

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I'm still merely responding to your own question/assertion here, btw, MA. If that makes you bang your head against the wall, perhaps you have just totally asked the wrong question? Chosen the wrong comparison?

Want to give my trip's shiny sparkly things a try after all, as a comparison? After all, if your only point is honestly, as Intrepid suggests, that, y'know, we just cant feel what you're feeling, when you feel God, then that would serve fine, as a comparison..

Of course, it wouldnt make God sound very real, but you're saying you're not out to prove his existence anyway, so... right?

Here's a good mind exercise: try to restate your point, while avoiding the fallacies in your original post that have been pointed out by others - for example by choosing a different metaphor, or better still, using no metaphor at all.

Might save you a lot of time (and headbanging) - and reassure us that you do actually integrate any of the new info you're given, whatsoever?

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sakhi wrote:

Momma,

(I cant resist jumping into this...)....
Are you trying to say just this much - "One cannot necesarily explain all of one's experiences to another". In that case, I quite agree with you.

But I think you are further trying to state that -"just as color blind cannot see red, you blind atheists are unable to see God".

This is where your analogy is faulty. Red is proven by means other than us seeing/experiencing it. God is "proven" only by believers seeing/experiencing it. The fallacy in your analogy lies there.

If everybody's experiences were "true" - there would too many contradictory truths...which is not possible. Your experience simply remains - your experience.

Exactly.

You've just neatly summarised much of the thread's responses.

If, like Intrepid said, all MA ever tried to say was that one can not make others experience one's own experiences in the same way, then she could have stopped banging her head a long time ago, because that is a statement that has long been acknowledged and shrugged off as obvious. (I can not make anyone experience the shiny, sparkly things I saw).

That she's still banging her head and saying we just don't understand, however, suggests she is trying to make a further point, and that's the one we understand all too well, but simply consider (to have shown) wrong (fallacious).

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sakhi and nimh,

No, you are still not getting my point. It's my fault not yours. One thing I promise you I am not saying in any way, shape, or form is "just as color blind cannot see red, you blind atheists are unable to see God"."

Let me see if I can put this in the right words.

No matter what anyone does, how they explain it, etc., you cannot make Charlotte see the color red because she is colorblind. It has nothing to do with her willingness, etc. She can be told over and over again that yes, red does exist, and she can accept that there is a color red, but you still cannot make her see the actual color red.

Many times I have been asked to explain God or an experience with God or how I knew it was God in my life. I tried and I tried and I tried. I cannot make someone else experience God by explaining my experiences to them. Now, some on here keep asking for evidence, etc. But, the standards of evidence cannot admittedly be adhered to in trying to explain God. I admit that. I accept that. I have no problem with you telling me that.

Just as it is hard for me to understand why you want evidence, no matter how many times you explain it to me, I do not have that "experience" of wanting or needing the evidence. You cannot give me that "experience" of wanting or needing the evidence.

I was just trying to attempt to show in a simple way (don't know how it got so complicated) that I realize this is a frustrating thing for all sides concerned.

I don't think any of us would disagree that reason, logic, etc., are not in the same category as faith and believing. I don't think any believers have a problem with that per se.

I gave this a lot of thought last night. I couldn't sleep because of it. I know that I frustrate the heck out of some of you, I make some angry, and others probably just laugh. But hey, you have to give me this ~ I am persistent!

I really feel that if we can all come to some kind of understanding on how hard it is to make someone else experience something from their eyes and viewpoint maybe we could all be a bit more patient and understanding with each other.

If I could give you the evidence (by your standards) that you want, I'd wrap it up in a big red bow! I'm sure if you could give me the desire for that evidence (by your standards) you would also. Is there some way that we can come to a compromise on this? I'm not asking anyone to give up anything here. I'm not asking you to give up your standards. I am just asking you can you be a bit more open minded about how hard it is for me (and other believers) to understand those standards when we don't have the desire you do? And for the believers, can be we be a bit more opened minded about the non-believers' desire for that evidence?

I sincerely hope that helped explain this thread. When I use "you" in here I do not mean the literal you. :wink:

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That's another point that was conceded long ago, though, Momma Angel.

The "you's" you are talking to now -- me, nimh, sakhi, Eorl, etc. -- are not people who ever asked you for evidence.

I have absolutely no interest in giving you the desire for finding evidence for god. I have absolutely no problem with you saying, "I believe in god, I have no evidence, I just do."

The only compromise is the one you have said you accept (but your actions/ words bely):

Momma Angel wrote:

But, the standards of evidence cannot admittedly be adhered to in trying to explain God. I admit that. I accept that. I have no problem with you telling me that.[/b]

Right. Good. Exactly. Say that when it comes up, and move on.

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Can You Make Me See Red?

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