The Argument Against Arguing Against Religion

real life wrote:

Doktor S wrote:
real life wrote:
Questioner wrote:
It's logical because a ginormous assumption is made at the outset that the bible is an accurate accounting and proof of God's existence. Which is illogical.

You may consider it insufficiently substantiated, but that is not the same as illogical.

If you wish to substantiate the Bible as an accurate representation of God's relation with man, for instance, you can do so.

Let's use prayer as an example.

1. Find out from the Bible how and under what circumstances God (as recorded in the Bible) says He will answer prayer.

2. Be sure you are actively meeting those criteria.

3. Pray.

You will find ample substantiation for the Bible's teaching on this by your subsequent experience in receiving answered prayer.

Is this not like a scientific experiment? The difficulty of course is in repeatability because it is impossible to EXACTLY replicate conditions and circumstances in order to repeat the same thing a second or third time, etc.

But I don't mind having different prayers answered.

Are you for real?
You are basically asserting prayer as a great and infallible wish machine. Every prayer answered? This is your proof for god?
What an imagination you have RL.
More evidence that religion causes delusional behavior.

Anyone who read my post can easily see that you have totally mischaracterized my statement.

But of course, you are, by your own admission, a professing Satanist. Which brings up the question, why should anything you say be believed?

Should we not expect you to mischaracterize, misquote and otherwise misstate?

No answer from you is needed on this. Because it's not necessarily believable anyway.

Summing it up, probably anything you have to say is irrelevant due to a basic lack of reliability.

*yawn*
weak.

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hephzibah wrote:

Ok, I'm not zippin the lip on this one.

Who exactly do you think you are real life? This is a debate forum. I bet everyone here believes differently about at least ONE issue. So who are you to negate something someone says just because they are a satanist? Isn't this exactly what the "christians" say the non-christians are doing to them? Characterizing them because of what they believe and not for who they are? So exactly what is it then that separates you from the unbelievers?

Such arrogance is not becoming to one who claims to know Christ.

Cheers Heph. You are indeed a refreshing addition.

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Faith is God might be an abstract concepts; easier to experience than to explain.

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is = in

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hephzibah wrote:

Quote:
Anyone who read my post can easily see that you have totally mischaracterized my statement.

But of course, you are, by your own admission, a professing Satanist. Which brings up the question, why should anything you say be believed?

Should we not expect you to mischaracterize, misquote and otherwise misstate?

No answer from you is needed on this. Because it's not necessarily believable anyway.

Summing it up, probably anything you have to say is irrelevant due to a basic lack of reliability.

Ok, I'm not zippin the lip on this one.

Who exactly do you think you are real life? This is a debate forum. I bet everyone here believes differently about at least ONE issue. So who are you to negate something someone says just because they are a satanist? Isn't this exactly what the "christians" say the non-christians are doing to them? Characterizing them because of what they believe and not for who they are? So exactly what is it then that separates you from the unbelievers?

Such arrogance is not becoming to one who claims to know Christ.

Hi Hephzibah--

After you think about this one, perhaps you may agree with me. It's not arrogance, it's just realism.

DS is a satanist. He subscribes to a philosophy that does not place any value on telling the truth, unless it advances his personal goals.

That being the case, what I said was that anything he says is irrelevant because there is no way of knowing if it is true, or even if it really is what he thinks.

So, do you think you can believe anything he says? Not if you think he is loyal to the philosophy he espouses.

It's like the old joke: If a man told you he was a pathological liar, would you believe it?

DS, on the other hand, has chosen this philosophy on his own free will. The consequence of his choice is that no prudent person can attach any vaule to what he says, coming as it does from a philosophy that places zero value on truth and all value on advantage.

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My respect for you grows, Miss Eppie . . .

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Quote:

DS is a satanist. He subscribes to a philosophy that does not place any value on telling the truth, unless it advances his personal goals.

LOL this coming from one who spends 90% of his time trying to convince us his imaginary friend is real, and is certainly not above what Setanta would certainly call 'tortured exegesis' and outright dishonesty to achieve that goal.
Honesty indeed.

How very droll.

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Real life I understand what your intentions were, but let me give you a version of how what you said could have easily sounded like to someone not seeing things from your perspective:

Quote:

Anyone who read my post can easily see that you have totally mischaracterized my statement.

ie: You are stupid.

Quote:

But of course, you are, by your own admission, a professing Satanist. Which brings up the question, why should anything you say be believed?

ie: You are a liar because you are a satanist...

Quote:

Should we not expect you to mischaracterize, misquote and otherwise misstate?

Ie: Of course you are going to do these things because you are a satanist which automatically makes you a liar...

Quote:

No answer from you is needed on this. Because it's not necessarily believable anyway.

ie: You are a LIAR!!

Quote:

Summing it up, probably anything you have to say is irrelevant due to a basic lack of reliability.

ie: You are a LIAR because you are a satanist which means I can't believe a word you say.

End of the "other" version.

So moving on:

Quote:

DS is a satanist. He subscribes to a philosophy that does not place any value on telling the truth, unless it advances his personal goals.

And most christians subscribe to a philosophy that in most cases places more value on pointing out other peoples wrongs, condemning them, and calling that the "truth" than actually living the life they were called to live, and showing the love that was freely shown to them.

Quote:

That being the case, what I said was that anything he says is irrelevant because there is no way of knowing if it is true, or even if it really is what he thinks.

Why would he lie? Just because he's a satanist? Just because he may believe satan is god (umm sorry, not trying to put words in your mouth dok) does that then make him the devil himself? Is he now some how not human and able to make decisions for himself? Does this also rule out that a satanist could have feelings and thoughts of their own outside of what they believe? I know I have feelings and thoughts outside of what I believe. Do you?

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Hi Hephzibah,

Let's not kid ourselves about the nature of deceit

Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Mt 10:16

I understand your desire to be accepted, however

Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets. Lk 6:26

You asked

"Why would he lie? Just because he's a satanist? Just because he may believe satan is god.....does that then make him the devil himself?"

Actually, as DS has described his philosophy in other posts, he believes HIMSELF to be god.

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You know it's funny you bring this up because this scripture has been on my mind for the last few days. It looks a little different in context though:

Matt 10
16 "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. 17 But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues. 18 You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles.

Hmmm scourge you in their synagogues... interesting... do the unbelievers have synagogues? Seems to me it could be leaning a little more towards christians scourging christians... just a thought though...

Quote:

I understand your desire to be accepted, however

LOL ok then. It's not about being accepted real life. It's about accepting people for who they are. Just as God accepted you for who you were... remember?

Once again let's look at this scripture in context:

25 Woe to you who are full,
For you shall hunger.
Woe to you who laugh now,
For you shall mourn and weep.
26 Woe to you when all men speak well of you,
For so did their fathers to the false prophets.
27 "But I say to you who hear: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you.

Oh I so want to be sarcastic here... but I won't. Read it real life... will you please? It's easy to find an accusation about others in the bible. I've done it myself in the past. Especially when you take just one scripture. Look at what was said and if you believe it... truly believe it... follow it. That's all.

Quote:

Actually, as DS has described his philosophy in other posts, he believes HIMSELF to be god.

Regardless of what dok has described as his philosophy once again I remind you he's a PERSON. Regardless of what he or anyone else here believes, that doesn't change who they are on the inside. Why is that so hard to understand?

I am fully aware of the nature of deceit real life. Just because I defend him doesn't mean I agree with his beliefs. There are plenty of people here who's beliefs I don't agree with, yet I choose to see them for who they are, not for what they believe. That includes you, by the way.

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hephzibah wrote:

Regardless of what he or anyone else here believes, that doesn't change who they are on the inside. Why is that so hard to understand?

I don't know about you, but I know that what I believe does change who I am on the inside.

hephzibah wrote:

yet I choose to see them for who they are, not for what they believe.

We are what we do and what we believe.

'We' are not some separate entity, disconnected from what we do or what we believe.

Perhaps you've had one too many psych classes. The message of the Bible is quite different from the 'make everyone feel good' and 'bolster everyone's self esteem' emphasis of today's culture.

Beliefs have consequences.

If someone believes that the truth has no meaning, only utilitarian value if it gets them what they want in a particular instance, then we are foolish if we act as though they engage in discussion on the same terms that you and I do.

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Quote:

f someone believes that the truth has no meaning, only utilitarian value if it gets them what they want in a particular instance, then we are foolish if we act as though they engage in discussion on the same terms that you and I do.

There is no 'the truth'. There are specific instances of true and false.
You are correct when you say I do not engage in discussion on the same terms as you do.

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Quote:

'We' are not some separate entity, disconnected from what we do or what we believe.

Oh boy... real life the best I have to offer you here is that I'll email you the bible study I did on "separating your who from your do" if you pm me your email address. I'd post it here but it's incredibly long, which doesn't tend to go over so well...

Quote:

Perhaps you've had one too many psych classes. The message of the Bible is quite different from the 'make everyone feel good' and 'bolster everyone's self esteem' emphasis of today's culture.

You know real life I gotta be honest here, up until recently I've studied nothing more than the bible. I never even went to college. I hated school and still do to this day. I find it incredibly boring. They lay out this outline and tell you what to study... give me a break... I study what interests me. What intrigues me. It's just my make up I guess.

Quote:

Beliefs have consequences.

I agree. That's something we all need to keep in mind.

Quote:

If someone believes that the truth has no meaning, only utilitarian value if it gets them what they want in a particular instance, then we are foolish if we act as though they engage in discussion on the same terms that you and I do.

Terms are not the issue here real life. PEOPLE are. All I can tell you is if all I had been surrounded by was people like you I wouldn't be here today. I would have shot myself. Why? Because I was a miserable life form, incredibly misunderstood, and I didn't believe in God. You know what real life. It wasn't good enough for a lot of "christians" that I wanted to do right, because all they could see was I wasn't doing right by their standards. Nothing I did was good enough. I tried to please them only to be disappointed time and time again.

Then one day, guess what, I actually started to study the bible myself and I began to see that God accepted me for who I am. He didn't want to dress me in certain cloths, He didn't want to condemn me because I was bad, He didn't want to send me to hell because I was a sinner. He didn't want me to put a plastic smile on my face as I walked in the church doors and then turn around and be miserable and treat others like CRAP until sunday came around again. God just loved me for who I was. For what I was. And you know what real life? That was NOTHING in the eye's of the "christians", because I couldn't meet up to "their" standards.

Yet the more you talk the more I think you have no clue how this feels. You have no idea what it's like to be on the outside looking in, do you? You have no idea what it's like to try so hard only to be rejected time and time again because you can't meet up to someone elses standards that they say are "God's" standards. You have no clue real life. Not even an iota..

I made one promise to myself and God somewhere along the line. That I would do my best to never as a "christian" do to others what had been done to me. That I would never fail to see the value in a person. How priceless people are. Regardless of all this religiousness. Lay it all aside for a second real life and be real for once. See that someone who opposes you has a sense of humor. See that someone that opposes you has creativity. See that someone who opposes you has intelligence. See that someone who opposes you has integrity enough to stand by what they believe, even if YOU think it's wrong. See something besides just the negative. Besides just the fact that they oppose you.

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So having said all that I will now say this:

I have no regrets about what was done to me. It only made me a stronger person.

I have no regrets about how hurt I lived for awhile because it put me in a perspective to not hurt others.

I have no regrets about defending others on this because I know what it feels like to have to stand alone.

I only have one regret in this whole situation called my life: that I kept my mouth closed for so long...

If you think you are representing the life Jesus lived by hurting others and justifying it with scriptures you are sadly mistaken and sitting in the very handbasket you say they are heading to hell in.

If you think it's ok to live a "do as I say, not as I do" life you are nothing more than a modern day pharisee.

If you think it's ok to stand in judgement of other peoples hearts... I would remind you... with the same measure you use it will be measured back to you.

We all have to make a choice of how we will live our life. Of what we will represent. I will condemn no one for the decision they make. Please excuse me if that doesn't make me as "good" a christian as some.

When you are gone you will leave behind only a legacy of the life you lived through the people you affected.

What kind of legacy do you want to leave behind?

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real life wrote:

Perhaps you've had one too many psych classes. The message of the Bible is quite different from the 'make everyone feel good' and 'bolster everyone's self esteem' emphasis of today's culture.

Indeed it is. However, if you'd pull your head from your a*s long enough to take note, Heph's method of communicating is being accepted and lauded, while yours continues to draw nothing but derision.

Now which of those two methods do you think is going to be more affective in communicating the church's message? Who's going to take you seriously when you are content to simply barge into a thread and begin tossing ridicule around?

Being outwardly civil to someone is a far cry from accepting what they believe or say.

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Questioner wrote:

Being outwardly civil to someone is a far cry from accepting what they believe or say.

Hepzibah and I are probably 180 degrees apart in terms of our philosophies of life. Yet I enjoy reading her posts, and have gotten the impression that she is a really bright, and nice person, whom I would be happy to know.

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Thank you questioner and phoenix. I feel the same about both of you.

I'm sorry I just realized something, it took a few hours to kick in...

Last night my hubby was following this thread and a conversation I was having. He said, "Be careful honey, you are starting to sound like you are looking for a following yourself."

I feel I owe you all an apology here because honestly that is not what I want. My intentions in being here are simple.

To be the best "me" I can be, and to encourage others to be the best person they can be regardless of what they believe.

I would never ask anyone to do things because I say it's right, but because they've decided for themselves it is right.

So I'm sorry. I don't want to be arrogant. I don't want to look like I think I'm smarter than anyone else, or know more than anyone else. I know I don't. I'm just me and that's all I have to give anyone.

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Hepzibah wrote:

So I'm sorry. I don't want to be arrogant. I don't want to look like I think I'm smarter than anyone else, or know more than anyone else. I know I don't. I'm just me and that's all I have to give anyone.

Please don't apologize for yourself. It is perfectly proper, if a person has something of merit to say, to be assertive in his presentation. It is not arrogance. I think that you ARE very bright, (as I believe many others in this forum agree,) and have a lot of good stuff to share.

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Phoenix thank you but I come before all of you now with my head hung in shame.

I realize now my own blaring imperfections displayed for all the world to see.

I'm a hypocrite of the worst kind.

The very thing I accuse real life of doing is the exact thing I just did to him.

No respect. No integrity. Only the purpose of being right and making sure he knew that regardless of how badly I had to brow beat him to get the point.

I preach a sermon to christians about not going around hurting people just because they disagree with you. Then I turn around and hurt someone just to get my point across.

In the famous words I myself have used... two wrongs don't make a right.

I've been reminded of those words several times since this started, but I was so bent on getting my point across I couldn't hear it. I didn't want to hear it, because I thought, "darn it I know I'm right and that's all that matters."

I'm so sorry real life. You didn't deserve that.

I'm so sorry to you all for being such a poor example of the things I say I believe.

Please forgive me.

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Hephzibah,

http://www.smileys.ws/smls/yahoo/00000060.gif

You rock!

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The Argument Against Arguing Against Religion

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