"FREEDOM FROM UNREAL LOYALTIES..."

I probably agree with her, but I think it would take a remarkable person to achieve that level of detachment from one's tribal identity, background and preconceived notions.

But our inability to come even close to that way of looking at the world has led to a lot of hatred and bloodshed.

I'll tell you something funny, D'art, and I know myself to be far, far from remarkable, but the reason that quote caught my eye is because I don't have those loyalties myself, have never been able to understand loyalties to institutions. One can love them, take pleasure in them, volunteer in them, cheer for them when they're in trouble, but loyalty? Loyalty to friends and a spouse; loyalty to members of one's family (but not The Family). When the demand for loyalty comes from outside oneself, it generally represents a demand with an ulterior motive: "Love it or Leave it..."

tartarin; i do believe that Ms Woolf can not be taken seriously, first of all a woman, second of all a writer and an intellectual. Perchance you have forgotten this is the Bush era and we don't abide by such stuff. n btw To the Lighthouse was my favorite.

That's true, Dys. Only a woman! And an intellectual. Weak stuff.

Her view is close to my own. I would fight to the death to protect my loved ones, but have no interest in marching and hoisting territorial flags.

Me neither, Edgar. There's nothing wrong with loyalty in itself, anything more than there's anything wrong with nuclear power. Just depends on how it's used.

Try this kind of loyalty on for size....loyalty to a NATION, our own.

Robin Williams' peace plan.......................................................(Hard to
argue with this logic!)



1) The US will apologize to the world for our
"interference" in their
affairs, past &present. We will promise never to
"interfere" again.

2) We will withdraw our troops from all over the
world, starting with
Germany, South Korea and the Philippines. They
don't want us there. We
would station troops at our borders. No more
sneaking through holes in the
fence.

3) All illegal aliens have 90 days to get their
affairs together and
leave. We'll give them a free trip home. After 90
days the remainder
will be gathered up and deported immediately
regardless of who or
where they are. France would welcome them.

4) All future visitors will be thoroughly checked
and limited to 90
day visits unless given a special permit. No one
from a terrorist nation
would be allowed in. If you don't like it there,
change it yourself, don't
hide here. Asylum would not ever be available to
anyone. We don't need any
more cab drivers.

5) No "students" over age 21. The older ones are
the bombers. If they don't
attend classes, they get a "D" and it's back
home, baby.

6) The US will make a strong effort to become
self sufficient energy
wise. This will include developing non polluting
sources of energy but will
require a temporary drilling of oil in the
Alaskan wilderness. The caribou will have to cope
for a while.

7) Offer Saudi Arabia and other oil producing
countries $10 a barrel
for their oil. If they don't like it, we go
someplace else.

8) If there is a famine or other natural
catastrophe in the world, we
will not "interfere". They can pray to Allah or
whomever, for seeds,
rain, cement or whatever they need. Besides, most
of what we give them gets
"lost" or is taken by their army. The people who
need it most get very
little, anyway.

9) Ship the UN Headquarters to an island some
place. We don't need the
spies and fair weather friends here. Besides, it
would make a good homeless
shelter or lockup for illegal aliens.

9b) Use the buildings as replacement for the twin
towers.

10) All Americans must go to charm and beauty
school. That way, no one can
call us "Ugly Americans" any longer.
Now, isn't that a winner of a plan?

"The Statue of Liberty is no longer saying 'Give
me your poor, your
tired, your huddled masses.' She's got a baseball
bat and she's
yelling, 'You want a piece of me?'"
" Robin Williams"

Robin is quite the commedian, what?

This is why Imagine, by John Lennon, is one of my favorite songs. For now, it can only be imagined, but what a lovely thought. It is something to aspire to and a philosophy worthy of loyalty.

Imagine

Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...

Imagine there's no countries,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...

Imagine no possesions,
I wonder if you can,
No need for greed or hunger,
A brotherhood of man,
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say Im a dreamer,
but Im not the only one,
I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one.

I suppose that's why I like John Lennon and Henry Miller so much. Loyal to humanity, not a flag or patch of ground.

Good point, Edgar; and nice reminder, Diane!

Hello Tartarin

Yes, I think I know what Virginia meant .... or at least how her words affect me .... It means letting go of conventional loyalties & empathising (sp?) with the oppressed, those that rightly deserve our concern & support, wherever they might be .... And putting these thoughts into ACTION.

Well, there are institutions which want our loyalty "for our own good," in my view, and only the suckers believe that and go with the flow:

The State: flags and oaths and nationalist fol-de-rol to keep us in line.

Corporations: brand loyalty. Keep us willing to give them our money. American cars are best...

Churches: where would they be -- as social and economic forces -- if we all said, Huh? church? God? Belief?

Families and marriage: What would happen to the genes, to the PROPERTY, if we said, I dunno, Maybe I'll just fall in love, have children, and not be part of that system?

Schools and colleges: Ah, the football team, the alumni fund....

Don't we buy into all this because we don't want to be outsiders? And then some of us learn the air is fresher, the choices more meaningful, on the outside... And... That's when a movement comes from the Right to keep us in line. Sound familiar?

And these days, the Right is already there, well entrenched, to keep us in line.

This excerpt from one of Vaclev Havel's letters sounds almost naive considering how strong the right has become, in its blown dry, polished way, as opposed to the Communists when they were in power in Czechoslovakia:

"So far," Havel scolded Husak, "you and your government have chosen the easy way out for yourselves, and the most dangerous road for society: the path of inner decay for the sake of outward appearances; of deadening life for the sake of increasing uniformity; of deepening the spiritual and moral crisis of our society, and ceaselessly degrading human dignity, for the puny sake of protecting your own power."

Terrific, Diane! Thanks!

VL - your post was a breath of fresh air. Too bad it makes too much sense for Washington to implement.