Hybrid Cars/ A Way to Extricate Ourselves from Oil

Motorists eh?What can anybody say?

you understand her spendy?

Slappy Doo Hoo,
Once again we are in agreement. Four of the top ten fuel sippers are VW diesels. You wouldn't know it from the media coverage of automobiles. We do need to get low sulfur diesel fuel as is used in Europe. I doubt that Hybrids will fair well in Europe.
50% of new cars in Europe are diesels.

The fact that hybrids are subsidized by the US government does not help the diesel market. Yes!!! Their is a fairly large tax deduction for buyers of hybrids. That also means that we are in effect, paying/ subsidizing the Japanese to sell hibrids to us by lowering the cost of some of their cars..

The government (you and I) are also undercutting fair competition in regard to Hibrids and diesels.

Cest la vie. Here's to my friends who bought new Jetta Wagon diesels and are getting an honest 50+ miles on them.
on the highway.
And here's to my solid '96 VW Passat diesel which is running like a top with 256,000 miles.

The thing I don't particularly prefer are the diesel particulates.


http://www.californialung.org/spotlight/diesel_faq.html

How come we the people of the world seem to have such good practical ideas and the governments of the world just don't seem to feel the same way as we do.

I'll buy a hybrid. Only construction workers probably look pretty goofy in a little ass electric car. But hey, that will be my part to help breaking the stigma of electric car being sissy cars.

Pulling up to the job site now thats a different story.

If we cut our gasoline usage in half then road taxes will double. If the car companys want to help their customers then they should put a plug in on these electric type cars so one could charge them from the solar cells on the garage roof.

I am an Electrician so I know what you mean!

The Hydrogen Economy

I agree with you coluber2001,

Nuclear energy has gotten a bad rap but for large stationary generation it's way safer *overall* than coal / oil. Also longer term the only other viable solution from many zones for large stationary generation is Solar Powered Satellites where energy from the sun is beamed to earth in focused microwaves.

As an added benefits of SPS, during down times it can be redirected for giant outdoor barbecues

Plug-in Hybrids: The Cars That Will Recharge America
Plug-in Hybrids: The Cars That Will Recharge America
by Sherry Boschert

Book Description:

A politically polarized America is coming together over a new kind of car-the plug-in hybrid that will save drivers money, reduce pollution, and increase US security by reducing dependence on imported oil.

Plug-in Hybrids points out that, where hydrogen fuel-cell cars won't be ready for decades, the technology for plug-in hybrids exists today. Unlike conventional hybrid cars that can't run without gasoline, plug-in hybrids use gasoline or cheaper, cleaner, domestic electricity-or both. Although plug-in hybrids are not yet for sale, demand for them is widespread, coming from characters across the political spectrum, such as:

Chelsea Sexton, the automotive insider: working for General Motors, Sexton fought attempts to destroy the all-electric EV1 car and describes how car companies are resisting plug-in hybrids-and why they'll make them -anyway.

Felix Kramer and the tech squad: Kramer started a nonprofit organization using the Internet to tap into a small army of engineers who built the first plug-in Prius hybrids.

R. James Woolsey, former CIA director and national security hawk: seeing the end of oil supplies looming, Woolsey is demanding plug-in hybrids to wean us from petroleum.

Cautioning that the oil and auto companies know how to undermine the success of plug-in car programs to protect their interests, the book gives readers tools to ensure that plug-in hybrids get to market-and stay here.

About the Author:

Sherry Boschert has been an award-winning medical news reporter in the San Francisco bureau of International Medical News Group, a division of Elsevier, since 1991. A committed environmentalist, the addition of solar panels to her roof led her to buy an electric car and to co-founding the San Francisco Electric Vehicle Association, of which she is President.
http://www.sfeva.org/wiki/Main_Page

Honda unveils its no pollution car
Honda unveils its no pollution car
29/06/2007
Telegraph UK
David Millward takes the world's fastest zero-emissions car for a test drive

Getting behind the wheel of any new car is a tad nerve wracking, but being entrusted with something worth around £5 million is enough to induce a cold sweat.

Honda's latest concept car, powered by a hydrogen fuel cell engine

Somewhat rashly Honda invited me to get behind the wheel of its latest concept car, a vehicle powered by a hydrogen fuel cell engine. The car is filled with hydrogen rather than petrol and is the world's fastest high performance zero emissions car.

The hydrogen is pushed through a "fuel stack" somewhere beneath the arm rest between the driver and passenger, where it is converted into electricity which powers the engine. While conventional cars give out varying amounts of C02, this rather sleek beast emits only water vapour.

Transport for London has been part of an EU project testing the technology on buses and many of the major companies are trying to develop the ultimately ecologically friendly car.

There are already hybrids such as the Toyota Prius and Honda Civic, which are powered by a combination of petrol and electricity and, though their carbon emissions are much lower, there is some debate about their fuel economy.

Cars such as Saab's dual fuel car run on any bio-fuel, but they are losing ecological brownie points from some who argue that they are merely depleting another valuable resource.

The latest Honda car is their third crack at the technology. The previous two sounded a bit like high-technology washing machines, with a tendency to hum rather than roar. Now the fuel stack - the box which converts the hydrogen and oxygen into electricity -has shrunk, making the new version radically different to drive.

The Honda car can travel up to 100 mph and is due to go into production in small numbers in Japan next year, where owners will be able to lease one for upwards of £250 a month. Unfortunately, the only hydrogen fuel station in Britain is in Hornchurch, east London, (20p a litre) meaning that Honda's green machine may never take to the roads in its present form, but the engine technology could become commonplace, perhaps within a decade.

My contribution was not to crash the concept car.

hybrids still consume fossil fuels, just a bit less.

hydrogen is produced by reducing fossil fuel.

Its not an energy source and it isnt a solution.

I recently rode in a new Toyota Camry Hybrid that my neighbor just bought. He says that it gets 32 mpg just running around town. It is a four cylinder car, but runs like a much heavier, luxury auto. I was impressed.

Some of the increases in economy hybrid owners claim come from the fact that they drive them more conservatively. How heavy a car is not so much a function of how it "runs" as is suspension compliance etc.

Here's what happened to electric car:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8037737380004144726&q=who+killed+the+electric+car%3Fyoutube+duration%3Along&total=1&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

force=massxacceleration. A light car uses less fuel because it doesnt take as much power during acceleration. Further the kinetic energy is lost during braking in a conventional car. With a hybrid (some of) it gets stored in the battery.

Finally, a voice of reason The new diesel emissions profile is remarkably clean. Mercedes already has a modified version of the CRT that exhausts air that is CLEANER then the air it ingests. Between the intake air filter, the catalyst, and the other soot scrubbers, the air going out is cleaner than what comes in

But, according to CARB, since its a diesel it absolutely in no way can be sold in CA. Even if it meets the insanely restrictive diesel requirements set forth by CA, they'll promptly change the requirements. They've done it almost every time before, most recently with the TDI.

Americans have a TERRIBLY skewed version of lies perpetrated against diesel. Let's face it, 95% of the American public has NO clue, and even of the 5% who are well educated in the engineering are still heavily influenced by the street talk about it.

I have a Step Van with a horrible 6.2 diesel in it. I burn strictly biodiesel. Any oxides of carbon I release into the atmosphere had to first be cleaned OUT of the atmosphere by the vegetation that supplied the oil. That's not to say it doesn't convert some of the stuff into bad junk before it spews it, but at least it doesn't drag carbon from 5 miles below the surface and spew it into the biosphere.

Hybrids are the teeniest tiniest step. They don't really get any better gas mileage than any other compact gas car, they cost WAAAY more to produce, and (this one is VERY important) the emissions involved in producing hybrid vehicles actually far exceeds the emissions it will put out during its expected life. The environmental impact can't be listed as just what comes out the tailpipe. Its the whole process.

If you really want to save the environment, eliminate your personal dependence on foreign oil, and reduce your carbon footprint to almost Zero, buy a VW TDI, convert it to bio. Enjoy lots of torque, easy modification, 55 mpg, beat the snot out of it for 300k miles, and never have to worry about what happens when your hybrid needs $9000 worth of new batteries.

The next step HAS to be, MUST be, biofuels. We will never become self sufficient that way since there isn't nearly enough farm land or supply of base feedstock for either biodiesel or ethanol, especially at our current rate of transportation increase, but it will be an excellent stop-gap in the chase for technology that allows us to more effectively harness solar energy.

I suggest a good read... "Biofuels: The Basics And Beyond." It has an incredible grasp on the political, fiscal, and financial impetus behind biofuels. The research that has been placed into that book is awesome. It is a must-read.

Keep in mind, Engineers tried their darndest to NOT make hybrids. They don't make sense to engineers for two reasons: 1) simplicity is not maintained, and 2) anytime you change states of energy you lose the majority of it. Sure you recover a tiny fraction with regenerative braking, but you can't compensate for the heat lost during the electrical generation phase. Auto makers thought they were great. We had just been disappointed with electric cars, so this was all the rage. Consumers would eat this up, and they did. We swallowed it hook line and sinker.

Most of your laws are made by silver-spoon politicians who are getting their information from lobbyists (mercenaries for any cause, not just the good ones). Some group of rich neo-hippies in Beverly Hills thinks that the reason her Louis Vuitton purse has yellowed over time is because she was on the street when a diesel truck drove by. Then she watched the news and saw how a whale had beached itself in Malibu. So what does she do? Signs up to support greenpeace or some other whacked out freak group who have decided that diesel must die. They get billions of dollars that they throw at lobbyists and politicians along with pictures of them hugging a tree or petting a dolphin and think they're saving the world from those smelly smog-producing carcinogens. The politicians don't look at or read reports, they just figure they'll get votes from greenpeace if they introduce a bill that gets rid of diesel. A powerful alliance it is.

Might I suggest you read my post more carefully? Your reference to vehicle mass being function of fuel economy is not what I am referring to all! I refer to the ratio of sprung to unsprung weight as it relates to suspension compliance, different thing altogether.

well i might have jumped in there a bit quick there, and I'm not sure what you mean by "runs" and "suspension compliance", however its a fact that heavy objects take more power to accelerate them and stop them than lighter ones.

I did not mean anything by "runs" except in the context of how I exhume Phoenix meant it. I exhume she meant it in a non-tech manner in which the car rode like a "much heavier, luxury auto" thus she was "impressed".

I figure Phoenix meant the way it rode, that being a function of suspention complaince as discussed and not a funtion of power to wieght ratio as you have brought up.

As to what I mean by "suspension compliance" I have discussed it's a function of the ratio of sprung to unsprung weight. What else would you like to know about suspension compliance:

- Stiction (yes that is the correct spelling)?
- Travel?
- Rebound damping?
- Compression damping?
- Sag?
- Preload?

BTW it is simply not accurate to say "its a fact that heavy objects take more power to accelerate them and stop them than lighter ones."

Why?

- Because wieght is a funtion of gravity, so mass is the more correct term here not weight.

- Because a more masive object only takes more power to accelerate and decelerate than a less massive object if the relative delta V's are taken into account.