Hybrid Cars/ A Way to Extricate Ourselves from Oil

very promising.

http://www.edmunds.com/new/research/toyota/prius.html

That belonged with my first post. Darn that editing business!

I think there's a good chance they'll be the norm at some point. The Accord V6 has 10 more horsepower than the standard gas-only engine.

However they're still too expensive. The Accord is priced at a premium. That article says a $20K tag on a Prius is attractive? I think for that money, it's too much of an econobox with too little power.

Slappy- But doesn't it stand to reason, as these cars become acceptable, and more are sold, the price will go down? Or, if the price does not go down, the manufacturer may increase the power, and the features?

I certainly considered buying one. But my present car returns 45 mpg + (uh oh are they them short change 'merican gals?) anyway was a bit disappointed witht eh actual prius mpg.

If the numbers sold grows the prices will certianly come down. At the same time though, the demand for a standard gasoline only car would also probably drop which will result in their prices dropping too.

The only real issue I have with the hybrids is that the inital cost is higher and I suspect the cost when they reach their failure point will be higher. Between the two of those it pretty much negates any economic incentive to buy them. We won't know about the long term cost for a few more years when we start seeing the failure rates on the current crop that is being sold.

We've yet to figure out what the environmental impact of disposing of the hybrids is too. It's something that is seldom discussed but we could be trading one evil for another here.

I am sorry that you weren't at that meeting. That is a great question, which I should have asked!

I don't understand why they're not pushing diesels. They get great mileage, are more reliable than gasoline engines, and still have comparable performance. BMW, Audi, Mercedes, even the high-end brands do well with them.

I think that Governments around the world should be pumping all sorts of aid and subsidy into this type of research and development.

The sooner we can remove the reliance on oil, the better. The USA government will have a fight on their hands though, as its very powerful oil producers will be doing everything in their power to get alternative fuels off the agenda.


Whatever happened to the hydrogen car? Water as a by product sounds good to me. Maybe it is being discounted, on safety grounds?

Get a bike...

3 billion Chinese can't be wrong.


Actually, the biggest problem with the hydrogen car is lack of infrastructure to refuel. I have seen reports that hydrogen fuel tanks are no more dangerous than gasoline. Second biggest problem with hydrogen is the energy required to make the hydrogen. Renewable electric sources may help to solve that one.

Hybrids cars don't have much chance. Way too many initial and ongoing costs, maintenance considerations and complexity issues. It won't be long before internal combustion engines are much lighter and considerably more efficient negating much of the claimed advantages of the hybrid car For example even now a Toyota Echo/Yaris is really not far behind the Toyota Prius, and it costs a lot less to buy and maintain long term.

One of the only sane long term sources of renewable electrical energy would be from solar powered satellites (SPS) beaming microwaves to earthbound collectors, but that's not happening.

I doubt wind, wave, geothermal, hydro, or ground based solar will ever be enough to really tip the scales away from fossil fuels, Nuclear could, but the public is against due to ignorance and fear.

http://members.nova.org/~sol/station/sps.htm

http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/space_solar_000908.html

Indeed. In fact whatever happened to all the hydrogen?

I own a Prius, and while it doesn't get anywhere near the mileage cited by the EPA, it does well enough. If the gov't had a consistent tax policy to make up for the extra expense of buying them, they would be a viable option financially.

The hybrid doesn't have to be the only alternative, but it's a good one...

I thought about getting a Prius, but, for the amount of driving I do, it would take me something like 6 years to make up the difference between the cost of that and a corolla.

In addition, my corolla gets really good mileage.

You don't hear much about advocating drivers slow down a little to save gas. What's wrong with that?

We've all had the experience of having Mario Andreti zooming by us on the highway, only to coast up to him 5 miles up the road, since we got off at the same exit, and are now waiting for the same light.

Phoenix, do you mind if I add that to the mix?

Why don't people slow down to save gas since it doesn't really make THAT much of a difference in time.

So, an average 20 minute drive is reduced to a 16 minute drive.

A car doing 70 will cover 18.6 miles in 16 minutes
A car doing 55 will cover 18.3 miles in 20 minutes.

Wow, 4 whole minutes.

I wonder how much gas the slower car saves?

Does anyone know?

From Edmunds.com


We Test the Tips
What Really Saves Gas? And How Much?
By Philip Reed and Mike Hudson
Email
Date Posted 11-22-2005
With gas prices so high, the media is awash with lists of gas-saving tips. Well how's this for a tip? If you listen to us, you can see hybrid-type savings without having to buy a new car.
By changing your driving habits you can improve fuel economy up to 37 percent right away (depending on how you drive). Combine several tips and perform routine maintenance and you will save real dollars, not just pennies.

A miracle? All we did was take several of the most common tips out there and put them to the test over a remote 55-mile route in the high desert of California. Some of them worked like a charm. Some of them didn't work at all. We'll give you the breakdown.

These tests were done under real-world conditions ?- not in a government lab somewhere. Our results can be matched by anyone ?- even you.

The wonderful part about what we found is that improving your car's mileage is just a matter of changing your habits. Stack a few of these winners together and we'll bet that you'll see a substantial savings at the pump ?- without the need for a new car.


Test #1 Aggressive Driving vs. Moderate Driving

Result: Major savings potential

The Cold Hard Facts: Up to 37 percent savings, average savings of 31 percent

Recommendation: Stop driving like a maniac.

Aggressive vs. Moderate Driving: read the entire test


Test #2 Lower Speeds Saves Gas

Result: Substantial savings on a long trip

Cold Hard Facts: Up to 14 percent savings, average savings of 12 percent

Recommendation: Drive the speed limit.

Lower Speeds Saves Gas: Read the entire test


Test #3 Use Cruise Control

Result: Surprisingly effective way to save gas

Cold Hard Facts: Up to 14-percent savings, average savings of 7 percent

Recommendation: If you've got it, use it.

Cruise Control: Read the entire test


Test #4 A/C On, Windows Up vs. A/C Off, Windows Down

Result: Nice in theory; not true in practice

Cold Hard Facts: No measurable difference (unless you open the sunroof, too!)

Recommendation: Please, make yourself comfortable.

Air Conditioner: Read the entire test


Test #5 Check Your Tire Pressure

Result: Important for safety and to reduce tire wear

Cold Hard Facts: No measurable effect on the vehicles we tested

Recommendation: Check your tire pressure often but don't expect a big savings.

Tire pressure: Read the entire test


Test #6 Avoid Excessive Idling

Result: More important than we assumed

Cold Hard Facts: Idling saves an average of 19 percent

Recommendation: Stopping longer than a minute? Shut 'er down.

Excessive idling: Read the entire test


The Tests

Our results are based on two separate fuel testing sessions. On each occasion we took two cars from the Edmunds.com long-term fleet and drove on a 56-mile test loop. Our route circled Owens Lake near Lone Pine, California, at the foot of Mount Whitney, the tallest mountain in the lower 48 states. We chose the route because it was so deserted we could vary our speed and driving style without interfering with the flow of traffic. The only other cars we saw on the route were a caravan of test vehicles from Mercedes-Benz. We drove the loops back-to-back to ensure that we were comparing similar wind and temperatures. We logged our results and later put them on a spreadsheet where the results were averaged.


Test #1: Aggressive vs. Moderate Driving

This is gonna hurt. Our tests showed that the most significant way to save gas is: you. And we're talking massive fuel economy gains. Think you need a hybrid? Chances are you've got hybrid-style mileage in your gas pedal foot. Don't mash the gas when you start up. Take the long view of the road and brake easy. This tip alone can save you unbelievable amounts of gas. If you slowed your 0-to-60-mph acceleration time down from your current 10 seconds to a more normal city pace of 15 seconds, you'll feel the savings immediately.

Method: We conducted this test four times. The first time we did the full 55-mile loop once by accelerating aggressively 15 times at 3/4-throttle from zero to a cruising speed of 75 mph. We also applied the brakes hard to come to a full stop. Then, we drove the second loop by accelerating moderately 15 times at 1/4-throttle to a cruising speed of 70 mph. We braked lightly to a full stop. In the second set of tests we drove 25 miles making 25 rapid accelerations to 65 mph at 3/4-throttle. After 1 minute of cruising we braked hard and repeated the cycle up to 65 mph. We then drove the same distance making 25 moderation accelerations to 60 mph at 1/4-throttle. After 1 minute of cruising we applied the brakes easily and came to a full stop.


Test #2 Lower Speeds Saves Gas

Remember a thing called the speed limit? On most highways it is either 65 or 70 mph. How fast are the cars and trucks around you going? From 75 mph to 90 mph. These people are wasting a lot of gas for the chance to get there a little earlier. Factor in safety concerns and a speeding ticket once or twice a year and going fast is a costly proposition.

Method: This test was simple. For 50 miles we drove with the cruise control set at 65 mph. Then, for another 50-mile stretch we drove with cruise set at 75 mph. We repeated this test going in the opposite direction. It is amazing how obvious the difference in gas mileage was. Just think what would have happened if we had slowed down to 60 mph. The only problem is with impatient drivers behind you. One driver became so irate that he tried to run our editor off the road. Still, if you are pinched by gas prices. Leave a little early and drive the speed limit (in the slow lane).


Test #3 Use Cruise Control

Using cruise control is a bit of gas-saving advice frequently on tips lists. We have always agreed with this tip in theory but we hadn't expected such significant results. First, it smoothes out the driver's accelerator input by preventing nervous "surging." Second, it makes the driver take the long view of the road rather than reacting to every change in the traffic around them.

Method: We did this test twice with four different cars each time driving the 55-mile loop. The first time we set cruise control to 70 mph. The second time, with the cruise control off, we varied our speed between 65 mph and 75 mph. We tried to mimic the driving style of a person who is in moderate freeway traffic.

One thing that's important to note: if you are in a mountainous area you should turn off cruise. It will try to keep you up to the speed you've set and will use a lot of extra gas downshifting to lower gears to accomplish this.


Test #4 A/C On, Windows Up vs. A/C Off, Windows Down

This has got to take you back to the days with the family on vacation. Dad says, "Turn the A/C off! It wastes gas!" And Mom says, "We can't roll the windows down or everyone on the highway will think we can't afford A/C." And you're in the back roasting, hoping someone will win the argument so you can cool off.

Well, family psychology aside, if dads are still saying this, they aren't necessarily right. While the A/C compressor does pull power from the engine wasting some gas, the effect appears to be fairly minimal in modern cars. And putting the windows down tends to increase drag on most cars, canceling out any measurable gain from turning the A/C off. But this one depends on the model you're driving. When we opened the sunroof in our SUV, the mileage did decrease even with the A/C off. Still, in our experience, it's not worth the argument because you won't save a lot of gas either way. So just do what's comfortable.

Method: We drove the full 55 mile-loop in two cars at equal speeds both times ?- 65 mph. The first loop we drove with the A/C on and the windows up. The second loop we drove with the A/C off and windows down. In the second test we drove 20-mile loops. This was far enough to see our gas mileage level off and remain steady on the computer trip meter.


Test #5: Check Your Tire Pressure

No matter how many times drivers hear about the importance of tire pressure, most of them don't do anything about it. They probably don't like squatting beside their car in a busy gas station with fumes swirling around them. But is it important? The answer is yes, for a number of reasons. Properly inflated tires are less likely to fail at high speeds. They wear more evenly and, yes, they deliver better gas mileage. How much? In this test we saw a modest difference in two of the cars. It might have been more dramatic with different tires on different cars. Experts swear by it; we couldn't really document it. And we wound up wondering if tire technology, like the design in other areas of the car, had improved.

Eventually, we concluded that each set of tires is different and every vehicle is different. We recommend that you do your own tests to see what inflation setting gives you the best fuel economy.

Method: We drove the 55-mile test loop four times at 60 mph ?- twice with tires at or above proper inflation. Once, we did the test with the tires 5 psi below the pressure recommended by the manufacturer. Since this produced very little difference we enlarged the gap and under inflated the tires by 8 psi. We felt that it was important to make sure the tires were inflated to the recommended level or above.


Test #6 Avoid Excessive Idling

If you turn off a light bulb as you leave the room you'll save electricity. If you turn off your car you will save gas. Obviously. But related questions are more difficult to answer. If you're only stopping for only a minute, is it better to shut off the engine or keep it idling? Should I shut off the engine in traffic? How much gas will this save? What rule of thumb do I use when trying to save gas this way?

Method: We took two cars and drove a 10-mile route stopping 10 times for two minutes. We shut down the car each time. Then we drove the same route at the same speed and let the car idle for two minutes.

Conclusions

The good news is that you can drastically improve your gas mileage. The caveat is that you have to change your driving habits. If you are willing to change, you'll find many related benefits too: no speeding tickets, greater safety, reduced stress and lower repair bills for tires and brake pads. In the long run this will save you money. And who knows? You might like the new you.

Surprised to see you so animated about such technicalities ms chaiteavous

Why dear?

I'm a big advocate of being kind to our planet, I don't want to have to move from it if it gets trashed.

Technicalities? Oh my, they appeal to my obsessive compulsive tendancies.

I stop myself before I grab the calculator and start playing with "what would happen if I slowed down 2.86 mph for the first 17.89878 miles of the trip, considering a gas price of......"




HA! I don't know if you get Monk over there on the "telly" as you Brits call it.

"What are you doing?"

"I don't know! But for the love of God, Stop Me!"