The Spiritual and/or Religious beliefs of an Atheist

Eorl wrote:

Frank,

Thanks, you said pretty much what I thought you would, I guess we've covered this ground before really.

I came across this quote recently by Asimov
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"When people thought the earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the earth was spherical, they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."

This is very good illustration of where I see the flaw in your position. When all the evidence points overwhelmingly to a particular conclusion, is it not reasonable to at least accept that conclusion as the most likely truth until the ultimate proof is forthcoming?...especially when that proof is impossible?

The flaw in your position is that you suppose the evidence points overwhelmingly to a particular conclusion...your's...when in fact, such evidence as there is (and there is very, very, very little of it) does not point in either direction...and especially, it does not point "overwhelmingly" in one way or the other.

Theists...Christians in particular...have got to get off the irrational position that the evidence points overwhelmingly in the direction that a God exists...and athesits have got to get off their irrational position that the other side of that coin is the reality.

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By the way, Eorl...if you want to offer all the evidence you have that point in the direction that there are no gods...I would be willing to discuss it.

What do you have other than variations of..."they cannot produce a god" and "there is no need for a god"...neither of which is evidence that there are no gods?

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ossobuco wrote:

Where do you think the Dys met with Laphroaig? (He introduced me to Pinch, which I liked.)

On the question at hand, I guess I don't understand why no one ever looks at past threads.
Do we all post our innermost thoughts for imminent etherealization? Frank, for example, has given his opinion some seven hundred thousand six hundred and forty two times, and still people wonder what he thinks...

:wink:

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Frank Apisa wrote:

By the way, Eorl...if you want to offer all the evidence you have that point in the direction that there are no gods...I would be willing to discuss it.

What do you have other than variations of..."they cannot produce a god" and "there is no need for a god"...neither of which is evidence that there are no gods?

To know and to believe are two different things.

We do not know if there is life on other planets. We do not know that there is'nt life.

People believe both.

I like your sig. Frank...it's similar to the one I'm using.

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I made this comment on a "reality" thread but it seems appropriate here.

When discussing "reality" we might use the term "hold a belief" as though "belief" were an "object" held by " a believer". This erroneosly extends the normal (everyday) boundaries of the word "hold" from the physical to the mental. It might follow then that "belief in God" is not an "acquisition", but a "modus operandi" and to discuss the "existence of God" with a believer makes no more sense than discussing the existence of "water" with a fish. To ask for "evidence of God" from a believer, is a "category mistake" (Ryle) like an uninformed tourist who having been shown round the colleges and libraries in Oxford, asks "but where is the university ?" . For a believer "life itself" is "evidence of God". As an atheist I can merely dispute the necessity or social consequences of universities/gods but not their "social reality".

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Bartikus wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
By the way, Eorl...if you want to offer all the evidence you have that point in the direction that there are no gods...I would be willing to discuss it.

What do you have other than variations of..."they cannot produce a god" and "there is no need for a god"...neither of which is evidence that there are no gods?

To know and to believe are two different things.

We do not know if there is life on other planets. We do not know that there is'nt life.

People believe both.

I like your sig. Frank...it's similar to the one I'm using.

Good sig, Bartikus.

Normally I do not ask for evidence (and never for proof) from theists or atheists, because it is obvious they neither is working with "knowledge" but with "beliefs."

In his post, however, Eorl mentioned that "...all the evidence points overwhelmingly to a particular conclusion..."...

...and I am merely asking him to reconsider that statement by asking him to discuss "all the evidence" that "points overwhelmingly to a particular conclusion."

I do that same thing with theists...who also think "the evidence points overwhelmingly to a particular conclusion"...but who think the conclusion is the exact opposite of what Erol thinks.

Amazin'!

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As a matter of interest Frank would your answer to "does the Devil exist" be "don't know" ?

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Frank,

People are lining up to ask your opinion again. I also have a request. Jakob Boehme, writing in the seventeenth century, characterized God as an inconceivable essence. What do you think of Boehme's description?

Quote:

When I ponder, what God is, I then say: He is the One in contrast to the creature, as an eternal Nothing. He has neither a foundation, a beginning nor state; and is of naught, save only of Himself. He is the Will of the Abyss. He occupies neither space nor place. From eternity in eternity in Himself He comes to be. He is like or similar to nothing, and hath no particular place which He inhabits.

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fresco wrote:

As a matter of interest Frank would your answer to "does the Devil exist" be "don't know" ?

I do not know the nature of REALITY, Fresco. There may be gods...there may be demons.

Do you know if gods or demons exist?

Are you able to say, "I do not know" when you do not know?

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wandeljw wrote:

Frank,

People are lining up to ask your opinion again. I also have a request. Jakob Boehme, writing in the seventeenth century, characterized God as an inconceivable essence. What do you think of Boehme's description?

Quote:
When I ponder, what God is, I then say: He is the One in contrast to the creature, as an eternal Nothing. He has neither a foundation, a beginning nor state; and is of naught, save only of Himself. He is the Will of the Abyss. He occupies neither space nor place. From eternity in eternity in Himself He comes to be. He is like or similar to nothing, and hath no particular place which He inhabits.

I consider it an interesting guess about gods...nothing more, Wandel.

Gods may exist...and exist in a way that we cannot even put into words.

And then again, "what you see" may be "what is."

I really don't know...and I suspect neither does anyone else.

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Frank,

I take your answer for "the Devil" as "don't know".

Now please try to answer this truthfully Is there any difference between the degree of your agnosticism for "God" relative to that for "the Devil" or are they equally possible ?

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Frank wrote-

Quote:

I really don't know...and I suspect neither does anyone else.

You needn't suspect it mate.It's a nailed on cert.

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fresco wrote:

Frank,

I take your answer for "the Devil" as "don't know".

Now please try to answer this truthfully Is there any difference between the degree of your agnosticism for "God" relative to that for "the Devil" or are they equally possible ?

I am not Frank, but I want to put my in. I think that there is about a similar probability that a God does exist, as there would be if a devil exists. Then again, if you consider the probability of bigfoot, the flying purple people eater, and Mars being made of Swiss cheese, you can probably safely assume a similar likelihood.

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Ah, but we do not speak as "agnostics" do we Phoenix ?

The point is that if Frank is at all selective in his "agnosticism" then we must ask him to justify that. At present he argues in terms of "evidence" but if "God" "the Devil" or anything else are equally lacking in evidence then any shift in his agnostic position must be based on other factors.

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fresco wrote:

Frank,

I take your answer for "the Devil" as "don't know".

Now please try to answer this truthfully Is there any difference between the degree of your agnosticism for "God" relative to that for "the Devil" or are they equally possible ?

What is there about the answer "I do not know" that you do not understand?

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Frank Apisa wrote:

fresco wrote:
Frank,

I take your answer for "the Devil" as "don't know".

Now please try to answer this truthfully Is there any difference between the degree of your agnosticism for "God" relative to that for "the Devil" or are they equally possible ?

What is there about the answer "I do not know" that you do not understand?

I don't think you are being asked what you know Frank. I think you are being asked what you ........believe. lol

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Bartikus wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
fresco wrote:
Frank,

I take your answer for "the Devil" as "don't know".

Now please try to answer this truthfully Is there any difference between the degree of your agnosticism for "God" relative to that for "the Devil" or are they equally possible ?

What is there about the answer "I do not know" that you do not understand?

I don't think you are being asked what you know Frank. I think you are being asked what you ........believe. lol

The questions from Fresco have been about what I know.

I do not know the nature of REALITY...I do not know if there are gods...I do not know if there are demons.

I just do not know.

And frankly, I do not see enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base reasonable guesses. (What you might call "beliefs.")

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It is clear that people do not like uncertainty.

I have been told that my beliefs in God come from a desire to comfort myself about my own mortality......a desire for there to be a God.

If this claim holds any validity whatsoever with myself or any other believer in God.....then it is only logical that the same reasoning can be applied to those who claim there is no God.

If there is a desire for there to be a God.....there must be a desire for there not to be one.

I'm not sure if you Frank have a desire either way. I do think you have a desire to know.

Knowing is greater than believing i think. But with knowing comes greater responsibility and accountability i believe. This scripture puts it in perspective.

1 Corinthians 13

1If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Only with love can a person responsibly handle.........knowing fully.

Apparently, we are not there yet and maybe that is for the best.

What I do know about the nature of the current known reality is........it is temporary.

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Frank,

You have not answered the question. Are you equally agnostic about "God" and "The Devil" ? .....or lets stretch it towards Phoenix's point....are you equally agnostic towards "God" and "Fairies" ?

Let us assume you are "normal" and say you are agnostic in the case of "God", tend to disbelieve in "the Devil", and think "Fairies" belong in story books. If so, such differentiation cannot be based on evidence. I put it to you it would be based on fashion since all three were considered equally "real" in medieval times.

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fresco wrote:

Frank,

You have not answered the question. Are you equally agnostic about "God" and "The Devil" ? .....or lets stretch it towards Phoenix's point....are you equally agnostic towards "God" and "Fairies" ?

Stop playing with words for a bit...and let's just talk.

I do not know if there are gods.

I do not know if there are demons.

If you do not understand what I am saying there...just ask me questions about them.

Quote:

Let us assume you are "normal" and say you are agnostic in the case of "God", tend to disbelieve in "the Devil"...

What on earth are you talking about here?????

I do not know if there is a God...or if there are gods...or if there are no gods.

I do not know if there are demons.

DO YOU????

Please answer that question, Fresco.

Do you know if there are gods or demons????????????????????????

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...., and think "Fairies" belong in story books.

Fairies do belong in storybooks.

[/quote] If so, such differentiation cannot be based on evidence. I put it to you it would be based on fashion since all three were considered equally "real" in medieval times.[/quote]

Really.

So I have to deal with what people did in medieval times in order to deal with this subject?

C'mon. Wake up.

Deal with this, Fresco:

I do not know if there are gods.

I do not know if there are demons.

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The Spiritual and/or Religious beliefs of an Atheist

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