Eorl wrote:As I once posted elsewhere in the hope of being called on it by an agnostic (namely Frank, but Frank had left the building).....any other agnostics feel like tackling it, please do.
Quote:The logic that leads me to conclude that it is highly unlikely that any gods have ever existed is basically Occam's Razor.
I see no evidence of any gods.
The universe needs no gods to be exactly as it is. That is to say it is entirely possible to have come about from the big bang without any intelligent direction.
I know that if humans did evolve that inventing gods would be an inevitable consequence of unexplained phenomena.
In other words if we assume there are no gods, would we still invent them?....yes, we would.
I look at all the religions of the world and without exception the mythologies fit the cultures of the people...similarities exist between the religions to the extant that you would expect...but no more than that.
Then there are the paradoxes that preclude things such as omniscience, omnipotence and benevolence co-existing.
Then there are the many MANY reasons why belief in gods prospers...fear of death, the redress of wrongs, the return to loved ones, etc, etc.
Then there is the simple problem of the gods increasingly unnecessary role in unexplained phenomena...no paranormal explanation has ever been proven for anything.
Sure many things remain unexplained but it seems extremely unlikely that suddenly a god will be required to explain any of them. Every day for hundreds of years another mystery gets crossed of the list...turns out - no gods involved.
What was "before" the big bang is a mystery...for a god to have existed "before" that would only complicate the problem more, not solve it!
Perhaps gods do exist, the ones that go to extraordinary lengths to conceal their involvement...the ones who created an entire universe just to test our "faith".
So ultimately I can never prove that no gods exist, but a quick swish of the Razor shows me "beyond reasonable doubt" that there are no gods.
Yes, it's a guess, I know....but it's a guess I would stake my life on any day of the week.
I guess that's why I am prepared to be an atheist despite the impossibility of proof for non-existence.
When it comes to spirit... I was persuaded (by JL Nobody) that spirit exists to the extent that my presence alters reality and continues to do so in my absence.
Well...you say so many things with which I agree, Erol...I feel disappointed you conclude on a note with which I disagree completely.
In effect, you made a strong argument that we do not know if there are gods or not...and that the guesses (beliefs) that theistic guesses that there are gods are unnecessary, predictable, and defective. You then went on to make an unnecessary, predictable, and defective guess in the other direction.
Every indication is that the answer to the question, "What is 'this' all about...and how did it come to be?"...can only be logically and truthfully be answered: Beats the shyt out of me.
Every guess about it is as silly as any other.
While I was gone, I got involved in two atheist sites.
Both were jokes...with as much "belief", rationalization and condescension as found at any fundamentalist site.
It has become apparent to me that except for atheists like Edgar...most atheists have given up the ghost and adopted agnostic positions...but have done so in a duplicitous way so that they can retain the designation "atheist."
Hope this is a good jumping off point for a discussion. Thanks for inviting me.
Bartikus...atheism is not a religion...although it often is a belief system.