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Why Do You Support Bush?

 
 
Reply Tue 27 Dec, 2005 04:29 pm
Please, if you support Bush, would you tell me why?

I'd appreciate thoughtful responses with clear explanations of what you like about what he/ his administration has done or why you support him as the president.

I just can't seem to get my mind around why some here argue so fervently in his favor.

Thank you in advance for keeping it civil.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 1,665 • Replies: 32
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squinney
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Dec, 2005 05:22 pm
Hmmm. Maybe it's for no reason at all?
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georgeob1
 
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Reply Tue 27 Dec, 2005 05:24 pm
Mostly I am inspired by the quality of his opponents. Every time I find myself doubting the wisdom of his policy choices (and that does happen) I stop and think for a moment about John Kerry, Teddy Kennedy, Charles Schumer, Joe Bieden, Barbara Boxer, Nanci Pelosi, Howard Dean,et. al. and my doubts vanish in a flash. It isn't so much the brilliant consistency of Republican policics that engages me, as it is the utter lack of a consistent world view and the rampant demagogery, opportunism, and core contradictions of the Democrats that keeps me going.

I have no doubt that the question here is asked in all sincerity. However I believe you should also tell us just what it is that so excites your own visceral hatred of Bush? Has he done too little to protect the country after 9/11? Do you suppose the challenges and opposition we face in the Middle east are at all new? Do you want more of the failed policies that have preserved these festering problems for a generation? Do you believe that our European allies truly have our interests at heart as they try to tie us down in a hundred agreements intended to reduce our autonomy and sovereignty?
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Dec, 2005 05:27 pm
sadly, georgeob1 is onto something. Democratic Party IS in disarray. At all time low, there are no decent candidates. Something must happen, soon.
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squinney
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Dec, 2005 05:57 pm
Bear with me here. I had to look up "Demagogery" to make sure I understood it correctly.

From Answer.com:

Quote:
The noun demagogy has one meaning:

Meaning #1: impassioned appeals to the prejudices and emotions of the populace
Synonym: demagoguery

Wikipedia -

demagogy
Demagogy is the set of methods used by demagogues. It is a strategy of obtaining power by appealing to the gut feelings of the public, usually by powerful use of rhetoric and propaganda.

H. L. Mencken defined a demagogue as

"one who preaches doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots."

The word is nowadays mostly used as a political insult: political opponents are described as demagogues, but people we approve of are "men of the people," or great speechmakers.

Although, according to Mencken's definition, Demagogy involves lying, some would say it doesn't, since it doesn't use false facts directly, but rather brings the uncritical listener to draw the desired conclusion himself. Demagogy often involves logical fallacies, but has many aspects that have nothing to do with logic.


Etymology
The word is derived from the Greek words demos (people) and agogos (leading).


Populism
In the twentieth century populism gained an ominous character when dictators such as Juan Peron and Adolf Hitler used demagogery and populist rhetoric to achieve their leadership positions.


Methods of demagogy
Numerical demagogy - mixing of incomparable quantities. For example, "our government has increased social spending by 5 billion dollars, while the previous government has increased it only by 0.4 percent." Obviously, the latter sounds like less, but one cannot be sure without an absolute value.

False authority - relying on the general authority of a person who is not proficient in the discussed topic. Example: "the professor read my book, and liked it very much". The fact that it was a professor of chemistry who read a book on anthropology is omitted.

For or against (False dilemma) - assuming that there are only two possible opinions on a given topic. Example: "Smith is not with us, therefore he is against us". The possibility of a neutral position or divergence is ignored.

Unrelated facts - bringing unrelated facts that sound in favor of the speaker's agenda. Example: "Our beverages do not contain sodium deoxycholate". This is probably true, but the mentioned chemical is a detergent, and should not be contained in any beverage whatsoever.

Emotional attack - an attempt to bring a discussion to an emotional level. For example, "Everyone is against me!", "Can't I be right just once?", "You are stupid!", "You are demagoguing!".

Demonization - identifying others as a mortal threat. Often this involves scapegoating--blaming others for one's own problems. This is often advanced by using vague terms to identify the opposition group and then stereotyping that group. This allows the demagogue to exaggerate this group's influence and ascribe any trait to them by identifying that trait in any individual in the group. This method can be aided by constructing a false dilemma that portrays opposition groups as having a value system that is the polar opposite of one's own, as opposed to simply having different priorities. For example, in the dispute over legal access to abortion, the participants may refer to each other as anti-life or anti-choice.


I'd say that sounds an awful lot like both parties. but even more so the Republicans at this time what with the fear factor, Roe v. Wade, and appeals to the Christian Right. Or, am I wrong?
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Dec, 2005 08:30 pm
squinney wrote:
Bear with me here. I had to look up "Demagogery" to make sure I understood it correctly.
You do. Nice job.

Quote:
Demagogy .... brings the uncritical listener to draw the desired conclusion himself. Demagogy often involves logical fallacies, but has many aspects that have nothing to do with logic.

Etymology
The word is derived from the Greek words demos (people) and agogos (leading).


.'d say that sounds an awful lot like both parties. but even more so the Republicans at this time what with the fear factor, Roe v. Wade, and appeals to the Christian Right. Or, am I wrong?


I agree that these are the time-honored practices of both sides of our political disputes, and that the trivialization of debate in our political campaigns has worsened the problem on all sides. I also believe that on the very issues you cited the demagogery of the Democrats far exceeds that of the Republicans, even including the boogeymen of the "Christian Right". The phrase "pro choice" certainly takes the cake as the most outrageous euphamism of the century.

Both parties routinely take credit for good things that happened on their watch even though the phenomenon started before they got there and the causes had nothing to do with their actions. They also blame the other in a similar way when things seem bad. With respect to the economy and the deficit the Democtats have set a new low standard for this kind of behavior.

By contrast Bush, with respect to Kyoto, merely said that he was against the treaty because (1) it didn't address the most significant growing components of greenhouse gas production and (2) because the attempt to comply would wreck our economy. He was accurate on both points. The rhetoric used against him on this issue has involved the grossest hyperbole and all of the illogical demagogic tricks listed in your excellent definition above. Interestingly no Democrat has addressed his two objections -- at all. (I'm not ready to credit Bush with virtue on this point - his rhetorical skills are so lacking that I doubt he could have brought off the demogogary lacking in his response.)

Certainly Teddy Kennedy, Schumer, Boxer, Pelosi, Dean and the rest are proficient masters of the demogogic art. They would give any party a bad name. Joe Lieberman and Diane Feinstein are two Democrats I do respect, but they are decidedly on the sidelines of the loonie menagerie that runs the party.
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Dec, 2005 08:38 pm
I think most of the criticisms against him are invalid.

I approve of his big picture approach in the ME. I approve of him refusing to give a date for withdrawals. I agree with most of his choices.

Why do you dislike him so much?
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Dec, 2005 09:05 pm
Re: Why Do You Support Bush?
squinney wrote:
Please, if you support Bush, would you tell me why?


Simple enough. I basically vote for whoever has the best mathematical shot at preventing the de-moker-rat from holding whatever office is in question. My ultimate political goal is to see the de-moker-rat party added to the list of banned and outlawed organizations (Klan, nazis, commies, tongs etc. etc.) which you swear not to know anything about when filling out government forms.
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squinney
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Dec, 2005 09:09 pm
Thank you, George. It sounds like you are "for him" only because the other side isn't offering up a better choice or presenting a unified platform. Is that correct? Are there any Bush policies, other than rejection of Kyoto, with which you have agreed?


Lash - Thank you. Is the ME policy a major factor for you? Or, do you find yourself agreeing with both his foreign and domestic policies?
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Dec, 2005 09:20 pm
Putting muscle behind our hit and miss policy with Saddam was important to me.

I liked that he went to the UN and tried to get a coalition. I didn't consider it his fault that they refused--and now that the Oil For Food scandal broke, I can see why they changed their tune about Saddam.

I think the vision of fighting terrorism--which was a big problem before 911 to me-- by promoting success and freedom in the ME---is the only real way to severely damage terrorism. I think it was scary, risky, and bold. He took his lumps for it, and I think it will prove an important event in history.

I appreciate his stance on AA.

I love his multicultural appointments.

I dislike his stance on gay marriage.

I don't understand how anyone (American) could support Kyoto.

I respected him signing on to Kennedy's No Child--and I think it is outrageous that the Democrats have tried to criticise him for it. It was funded to their specifications, and it will take a while to work. It has taken a long time to get in the hole we're in.

Why do you dislike him so much? Could you share policies you really hate?
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talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Dec, 2005 11:19 pm
George is a capitalist while Lash is a Jew so one can gather their main political focus.
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Dec, 2005 11:22 pm
And, talk is a racist.

What would a Jew's main political focus be?
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talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Dec, 2005 11:25 pm
I meant Lash is a Likudnik.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Dec, 2005 11:27 pm
squinney wrote:
Thank you, George. It sounds like you are "for him" only because the other side isn't offering up a better choice or presenting a unified platform. Is that correct? Are there any Bush policies, other than rejection of Kyoto, with which you have agreed?


Kyoto wasn't just Bush. During the Clinton Administration, the Senate voted 97-0 in a non-binding resolution condemning the treaty and expressing its intent to reject it if submitted for ratification. Clinton went ahead and signed it anyway - and then sat on it for almost a year without ever submitting it to the Senate. Bush merely presided over the funeral - though at least he had the balls to say why he did it. Same goes for the International Criminal Court - the U.S. had long-standing concerns about the potential misuse of jurisdiction and a violation of our Constitution in the treaty of Rome which created it, and our negotiations over the draft treaty were at an impasse.. In an odd, seemingly impulsive gesture Clinton signed the treaty in the last weeks of his presidency - perhaps to leave a time bomb for his successor. Again Bush dealt with it in a forthright manner. These were the two issues that inflamed European opinion against Bush. I suspect they resented the fact that the U.S. Gulliver finally recognized the Liliputians were trying to tie him down, and broke their strings.

I believe the tax cuts were a good thing and necessary to curtail the recession that started a few months before he took office. I fault Bush for not doing more to curtail discretionary Federal spending though. Our tax rates are now slightly MORE progressive than they were before the cuts - the Democrat rhetoric about cuts for the rich were the worst form of demagogary, however it plays well with a willing media.

The War on Terror and the Intervention in Afghanistan have been undeniable successes. We have also developed some important relationships with the Central Asian republics that escaped Soviet Rule. These may be important in the years ahead.

The Iraqi intervention was a bold move. Too early to tell if the long-term effects will be good or bad. Much is said and written about the potential bad side effects of the intervention. Too little is said about what would be the likely situation today in the Middle East if we hadn't intervened. Saddam would likely again be threatening both Kuwait and Saudi Arabia and the overall situation would almost certainly have been much worse for us.

The disenchantment that has grown between Europe and the U.S. was an inevitable consequence of the removal from the world scene of a deadly enemy who threatened (and united) us both. Our relations with them have returned to their normal, pre WWI state. Meanwhile the Europeans are suffering from ageing populations and demographic decline, the loss of cultural identity to immigration (at only about 25% the levels we see here), economic stagnation, and the economic challenge from their new EU partners in the East. They are looking for someone to blame and we will do - no matter who is the President.

Bush isn't much of a communicator. His rhetorical deficiencies have protected him from the worst forms of demagogery, but they have also limited his effectiveness as President. He certainly isn't stupid - that canard speaks more about the character of his critics than it does of him.

I agree with you about the relatively poor crop of potential candidates among Democrats. Their problem is to free the party from the grip of the single issue loonies who are its most active and best organized members. Clinton did that rather brilliantly in 1992, but I don't see anyone capable of it now.

Interestingly the so-called religious right hasn't done all that well under Bush. He has thrown them a small bone or two, but otherwise given them only words. Oddly the Democrats rail loudly about the danger from the right. This only makes them even more captive to their own looniews and inflames their opposite numbers. Not very smart.
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Dec, 2005 11:30 pm
Yeah...that's the ticket, yeah....

I'm a person who hates people who hate Jews, and gays, and a smattering of other folk I feel a kinship with.

Not very complicated.

This:

...Lash is a Jew so one can gather their main political focus.

is a racist statement. All Jews don't have the same political focus. I hope you'll amend your thinking.
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talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Dec, 2005 11:45 pm
I guess your sympathy does not include Muslims.
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Dec, 2005 11:49 pm
Individual Muslims, wrongly treated--sure-- but do I feel about them the same as some other minority groups-- no. You're right.

I learned about the Holocaust at a young age--saw images of concentration camp survivors and blacks murdered and horribly treated when I was forming my identity, I guess.

Had no knowledge of Muslims during that time.
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Dec, 2005 11:51 pm
I am STILL unaware of any hardships Muslims as a group may have had that approach other groups'.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Dec, 2005 11:56 pm
talk ---

Squinney has posed an interesting question here and she is dealing intelligently with the responses. Please don't spoil this for the rest of us with your rather unflattering (to yourself) cheap shots.


Lash,

Don't get in a fight with a pig. You both get dirty, but the pig likes it.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Dec, 2005 06:47 am
For those of you who missed it, the recent interview of Bush by Lehrer on PBS... transcript and video.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/white_house/july-dec05/bush_12-16-05.html

I'm truly befuddled by how anyone can conclude other than that the man is seriously unqualified for his post.
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