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Left hand path vs Right hand path religion.

 
 
Doktor S
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Dec, 2005 02:10 am
Amigo,
Quote:

Why do you defend LaVey. He's nothing. His philosophy religion can stand without him as all truth can stand without any god or religion.

Agreed, but if you feel this way why do you feel the need to launch pointless ad hominem attacks? It's bad form and makes you look rather ignorant.
Quote:

What if I told you the 1% most powerful men on the planet are descendent of this philosophy and that you are their slave.

I would say that everyone in society is a slave on some level. The nature of society is stratification (incidently something embraced by Satanism)
But, to quote the 5th Satanic sin...
Quote:
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Doktor S
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Dec, 2005 02:15 am
neologist wrote:
I still can't understand how there wouldn't be subsets based one's concept of free will.

Sorry Neo, I missed this somehow...
What I have probably failed to clarify is where Satanism ends and my own personal opinions begin.
'Satanism' officially has no position on 'determinism vs freewill'. My determinist position is mine, although it is more compatible with the philosophy.
Endorsing 'freewill' while also endorsing the Satanic credo "Undefiled wisdom instead of spiritual pipe-dreams" seems to me to be problematic.
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Doktor S
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Dec, 2005 02:16 am
Bartikus wrote:
There once was a devoted priest who wished to see both
heaven and hell, and God gave way to his pleading.
The priest found himself before a door which bore no name. He trembled as he saw it open before him into a large room where all was prepared for a feast. There was a table, and at its centre a great dish of steaming food. The smell and the aroma inflamed the appetite.

Diners sat around the table with great spoons in their hands, yet they were shrieking with hunger in that terrible place. They tried to feed themselves, and gave up, cursing God, for the spoons that God had provided were so long that they could not reach their faces and get the food to their tongues. So they starved, while their dish of plenty lay amongst them. The priest knew their screams were the cries of hell, and as this understanding came, the door closed before him.

He shut his eyes in prayer and begged God to take him away from that terrible place. When he opened them again, he despaired, for the same door stood before him, the door that bore no name. Again it opened, and it gave onto the same room. Nothing had changed, and he was about to cry in horror. There was the table, and at its centre the steaming dish, and around it were the same people, and in their hands the same spoons.

Yet the shrieking had gone, and the cries and the curses had changed to blessings; and nothing had changed, yet everything. For with the same long spoons they reached to each-other's mouths and fed one another, and they gave thanks to God.

And as the priest heard the blessings, the door closed. He fell to his knees, and he too blessed God who had shown him the nature of heaven and hell, and the chasm - a hair's breadth wide - that divides them.

I actually see tremendous wisdom in this parable. To me, this says heaven and hell are states of mind. A useful tidbit for the here and now.
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Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Dec, 2005 03:40 am
I never attacked you. I attacked things you chose to defend and I am ignorant. Why did you call Neo small minded? Why did you say you would rather be dead then follow eastern philosophy? If I am guilty then you are guilty too. and I am guilty.

I'm still wondering about Howard levys ego?

and arin't you concerned about Nietzches contradictions to Satanism?

and oh yea, F**k form.
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Doktor S
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Dec, 2005 03:56 am
Quote:

I never attacked you. I attacked things you chose to defend and I am ignorant.

Ad-hominem means attack against the man, and refers to the fallacious argument of attacking an idea by proxy by attacking the person that forwarded it.
I never claimed you were attacking 'me', but it is apparent you are trying to jab at Satanism by poking at its founder. After all, the conversation isn't about the man.
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Why did you call Neo small minded?

I certainly did not.
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Why did you say you would rather be dead then follow eastern philosophy?

Because the latter strives for and enshrines the former, and to me that is no life at all.
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If I am guilty then you are guilty too. and I am guilty.

Of ignorance? I heartily disagree.
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I'm still wondering about Howard levys ego?

I'm still wondering how this is in any way relevant.
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and arin't you concerned about Nietzches contradictions to Satanism?

No. Why should I be? And it's Nietzsche
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Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Dec, 2005 09:56 am
Doktor S,

Can you please list all the 9 Satanic sins, please?
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Dec, 2005 10:07 am
Thanks, Bartikus, a wonderful parable suggesting the value of cooperation and altruism, expressions of enlightened self-interest.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Dec, 2005 10:18 am
Bartikus wrote:
There once was a devoted priest who wished to see both
heaven and hell, and God gave way to his pleading. . .
But, of course, there is no hell.

And truly, Amigo, your point about Levy or LaVey is not relevant to the argument at hand. If Einstein had been a skunk, would we discard his theory of relativity?

I think you do have a valid point to make about the application of his philosophy and I'm waiting to see if you refine it.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Dec, 2005 10:50 am
Nietzsche's argument for the ubermensch, while repudiating Christianity's slave morality, avoids the failings of satanism.

By the way, zen is not a religion in the usual sense of the term--the usual sense would indicate that all religions are, by definintion, right-hand-path ideologies.
Zen and mysticism in general may be considered "religion" in the sense of religare or re-ligio: reconnecting oneself with the totality. But this seems to be RHP in its suggestion that the totality was something apart from the individual who, though mystical practices, (re)connected to. In zen what one comes to realize is that he was never separate from the whole; he realizes (not achieves) his unity with all else--meaning the delusion of ego-separateness.
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Doktor S
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Dec, 2005 12:08 pm
Quote:

Nietzsche's argument for the ubermensch, while repudiating Christianity's slave morality, avoids the failings of satanism.


Do enlighten me as to what these 'failings' consist of?
Most of the time those that touch apon the 'failings of Satanism' only reveal their failings in the knowledge of the subject.
Surprise me.
Quote:

By the way, zen is not a religion in the usual sense of the term--the usual sense would indicate that all religions are, by definintion, right-hand-path ideologies.

Not all, but the overwhelming majority.
Quote:

In zen what one comes to realize is that he was never separate from the whole; he realizes (not achieves) his unity with all else--meaning the delusion of ego-separateness.

'realizes he was never separate'
'delusion of ego separateness'
Looks like they got you convinced anyway Razz
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Dec, 2005 12:35 pm
I would love to have Frank back on this thread. Laughing

It would be like putting a cat in the paper bag with a tiger.

Perhaps he avoids us for a reason.
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Dec, 2005 12:36 pm
Two tigers, actually. One black and one white.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Dec, 2005 04:54 pm
And THAT Doktor, is the major failing of satanism as you've described it: its glorification of the delusion: ego-self. Nietzsche rejected the notion of an ego-self because it, the ego, shares the falsity of all "beings" and "things." To him there are only processes of becoming, as opposed to being. This is similar to mysticism's rejection of the subject-object split of dualism. For Nietzsche the non-existence of "thing-ness", of objects entails the non-existence of "subjects." One cannot have subjects without objects, nor objects without subjects.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Dec, 2005 05:03 pm
he not busy being born are busy dying.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Dec, 2005 05:09 pm
Yes, becoming=unbecoming. Vishnu=Shiva.
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Doktor S
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Dec, 2005 05:25 pm
Quote:

And THAT Doktor, is the major failing of satanism as you've described it: its glorification of the delusion: ego-self

That whole line of reasoning fails because it isn't useful. There is no spoon is all well and good until it's time to eat your cereal.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Dec, 2005 06:31 pm
Granted, Doktor, from the perspective of a narrow utilitarianism, mystical enligtenment is not "useful". But if the joy and peace of "enlightenment" are valued it is more than useful. I agree that thinking is at its most useful when it follows the standards of Pragmatism. Intellectually, I identify myself as a (unexceptional) pragmatist, but spiritually, I am an (unexceptional) atheistic mystic. Given my understanding of mysticism and pragmatism, the self-identification, mystic-pragmatist, is not oxymoronic.
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Doktor S
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Dec, 2005 06:37 pm
I see no value in all things 'mystical' other than the sense of wonder they can provide.
But then, there is plenty of wonder in the real world, which is yet chalked full of mysteries, too.
It is the latter we have a hope of understanding, while the former is just intellectual masterbation.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Dec, 2005 08:48 pm
Mysticism is not an intellectual activity, having nothing to do with "understanding" in the usual sense. And it has nothing to do with romantic wonderment. You reject it out of hand because you have no idea of what it is.
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