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143 democrats vote against victory in Iraq,

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Dec, 2005 10:41 am
You have had too much coffee . . . i'm just making my second cup, give me a break . . .
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Dec, 2005 10:42 am
mysteryman wrote:
Well,after reading that thread,your thoughts mean nothing.

You read that entire thread in less than an hour?

mysteryman wrote:
When you actively root for Americans to die,and when you actively root for as many American casualties as possible,do you realy expect to be taken seriously on anything you say about the war?

Not that I care about your opinion regarding the seriousness of my views, but I do not actively root for as many American casualties as possible. I want the US to withdraw immediately, which would entail the fewest casualties possible. Indeed, it is people like you, mysteryman, who want to vigorously prosecute the war, that are actively rooting for as many American casualties as possible.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Dec, 2005 10:44 am
joefromchicago wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
Well,after reading that thread,your thoughts mean nothing.

You read that entire thread in less than an hour?

mysteryman wrote:
When you actively root for Americans to die,and when you actively root for as many American casualties as possible,do you realy expect to be taken seriously on anything you say about the war?

Not that I care about your opinion regarding the seriousness of my views, but I do not actively root for as many American casualties as possible. I want the US to withdraw immediately, which would entail the fewest casualties possible. It is people like you, mysteryman, who want to vigorously prosecute the war, that are actively rooting for as many American casualties as possible.


When you root for America to lose,there is only one way we can.

That would be for the enemy to inflict so many casualties that the American people,en masse, rise up in opposition to the war.
The Vietnam war was lost that way.

So,since you want the US to lose,you want us to suffer casualties.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Dec, 2005 10:46 am
mysteryman wrote:
When you say that you want America to lose,then you are rooting for as many American casualties as possible.

You can try to spin it any way you want,but the bottom line doesnt change.


You didn't read it.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Dec, 2005 10:47 am
Vietnam was not lost that way. Learn your history.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Dec, 2005 10:48 am
Setanta wrote:
You have had too much coffee . . . i'm just making my second cup, give me a break . . .

Don't try to make cup with me now.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Dec, 2005 10:52 am
mysteryman wrote:
When you root for America to lose,there is only one way we can.

No, there are actually many ways to lose a war. The Bush administration, however, is focused on achieving just one of them. But just because Bush is single-minded in his approach to losing doesn't mean that we have to be.

mysteryman wrote:
That would be for the enemy to inflict so many casualties that the American people,en masse, rise up in opposition to the war.
The Vietnam war was lost that way.

The Vietnam War could have been lost in any number of ways. Just because Johnson and Nixon tried just one approach doesn't mean that's the only way.

mysteryman wrote:
So,since you want the US to lose,you want us to suffer casualties.

On the contrary, since you want the US to win, you want us to suffer casualties. I want US troops to withdraw immediately. No troops means no war means no casualties.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Dec, 2005 10:57 am
joefromchicago wrote:
The Vietnam War could have been lost in any number of ways. Just because Johnson and Nixon tried just one approach doesn't mean that's the only way.


First class . . . irony is not dead, but it is a voice crying in the wilderness . . .
0 Replies
 
StSimon
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Dec, 2005 11:20 am
squinney wrote:
Quote:
The operative heart of House Resolution 612 reads: "[S]etting an artificial timetable for the withdrawal of United States Armed Forces from Iraq, or immediately terminating their deployment in Iraq and redeploying them elsewhere in the region, is fundamentally inconsistent with achieving victory in Iraq…."

"House Resolution 612 is a prescription for keeping U.S. troops in Iraq indefinitely," said Abercrombie. "It appears to have been written in concert with the Republican National Committee. It dovetails perfectly with their t.v. ads attacking Democrats who question President Bush's flawed decision to go to war and his subsequent mismanagement of the conflict."

At the same time House Republican leaders were rushing House Resolution 612 through the chamber with minimal debate, they refused to bring to the floor a measure (House Resolution 613) containing bipartisan language congratulating Iraqis for successfully conducting an election for a national government.

"This cynical partisan manipulation is unworthy of our troops," said Abercrombie. "They've done everything we've asked of them, and they deserve our thanks and support. Our challenge now is to formulate a policy worthy of their heroism and sacrifices. House Resolution 612 fails miserably in that regard. Instead, it substitutes empty posturing for serious policy deliberation."


Link


So if we're going to stay there indefinitely, at what point have we "won". I thought we were in a war against terrorism. If we have "won" in Iraq, does that mean the war against terrorism is "won"? I mean, after all, that is the war we are fighting isn't it, the war against terrorism??
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Dec, 2005 11:23 am
Winning is relative.














































You've won until you lose a relative.
0 Replies
 
StSimon
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Dec, 2005 11:23 am
mysteryman wrote:
So Joe,you think we should lose?


We lost when they ratified a constitution that makes Iraq an Islamic Theocracy. They can be just as "democratic" as Iran is now.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Dec, 2005 11:24 am
Welcome to A2K StSimon.
0 Replies
 
StSimon
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Dec, 2005 11:28 am
Setanta wrote:
Your mind surely doesn't change . . . of that we can be certain . . .


That's the beauty of being a rightwinger. You don't have to consider nasty things like reality. Make up your mind and support it no matter how wrong it is.
0 Replies
 
StSimon
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Dec, 2005 11:44 am
Thanks Freeduck, seems pretty lively.
0 Replies
 
cyphercat
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 12:12 am
Argh, now I'm so pissed off. When will I learn? Must remember: Don't go to the Politics forum, don't go to the Politics forum...

This thread is one of the most irritating things I've read in months. I know it's pointless to say anything at all, because the premise-- "Democrats voted against victory!!!! Democrats voted to lose!!!!!!"-- is such rampant idiocy, it's kind of clear that there's nothing one can say in response that can possibly get through to the author of the thread...

But against my better judgement, I just have to ask, Mysteryman, you honestly believe that the title of the bill alone encomapsses its whole meaning? And if that really was all the bill was about, if it really was just some utterly meaningless vote about whether or not to go ahead and win, you really believe that the Dems are so STUPID that they would vote against winning? And a bill basically called "Should we win or not?" doesn't seem a little fishy to you, like maybe it could be li'l bit of political gamesmanship, eh what?
0 Replies
 
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 12:24 am
MM = Mindless Man
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 12:28 am
MM thinks it is amusing that the Republican congressmen tweaked the nose of the Democrats.

I imagine he will be just as amused when the Republicans get tweaked. Surely he will.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 06:59 am
DrewDad wrote:
MM thinks it is amusing that the Republican congressmen tweaked the nose of the Democrats.

I imagine he will be just as amused when the Republicans get tweaked. Surely he will.


Actualy,I find it amusing when ANY politicians nose gets tweaked.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Dec, 2005 03:23 pm
Here's where the logic falls apart
Quote:
(6) setting an artificial timetable for the withdrawal of United States Armed Forces from Iraq, or immediately terminating their deployment in Iraq and redeploying them elsewhere in the region, is fundamentally inconsistent with achieving victory in Iraq;


This statement is where is all falls apart. When the deadline for the Iraqi constitution was approaching and there was a stalemate, President Bush was insistent that the deadline, which everyone agreed was abitrary, be adhered to. As he correctly noted, and every teacher and strike negotiator will confirm, deadlines produce compromises and results. They give everyone a target to work towards. Setting a realistic timeline for the withdrawal of US troops produces two things: 1> It shows the world that we are really planning to leave, not just paying lip service to it. This also takes some wind out of the local insurgency since dying to drive the US out seems kind of silly when you can just wait 18 months. 2> It forces the Iraqi government to come up with hard plans to take charge.

If we had published a timeline the day the Iraqi army surrendered, there would be no way to lose. If we publish one today, the US public is molified, the European critisism is diminished and the Arab street resistance is thrown into confusion. It is a perfect plan. To win in Iraqi, a deadline is a necessity.
0 Replies
 
cyphercat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Dec, 2005 03:49 pm
That's it exactly, engineer. It should go without saying that this part of the bill is what the Dems were voting against. I can't believe anyone was actually snookered by all the folderol about "voting against winning," etc.
0 Replies
 
 

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