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Transit Strike

 
 
Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 01:10 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
D'artagnan wrote:
Of course, it is.

(Although, just to quibble, it's a bit different to compare non-Americans commented on US politics to this. Our policies affect the rest of the world significantly. The subway strike in NY doesn't really have much direct impact on the rest of us. At least, not at the moment...)


Let me see if I have this right. The commentary of (say) an Italian citizen on domestioc American politics is OK because of the significant effect our policies have on the rest of the workd, while those of an American citizen, living in (say) Virginia are not, presumably because that individual is not affected.

This of course presumes he has no connection whatever to U.S. financial markets or any of the myriad commercial activities that span the country and which manage central transactions in New York. I wonder if D'artagnian would permit a citizen of Buffalo who has never been to Manhattan to be concerned? It is, after all a New York State law that is being violated.

Finally, the sappy notion that "because our policies have significant effect all over the world", our domestic affairs are somehow more deserving of the concern and perhaps even meddling of people from other countries than are the aaqnalogous policies of other countries, defies the basic principals of our governance and plays to the softheaded European thinking that paralyzed them during five yeardsw of organized genocide in their very midst just over a decade ago.


I wrote, "At least, not at the moment." George, how you are you being affected by the NYC strike at the moment?
0 Replies
 
Louise R Heller
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 01:19 pm
Bloomberg is not a party to this strike and has no say in its outcome.

If Debra_Law were a legal person she would know that.....
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 01:54 pm
D'artagnan wrote:
Of course, it is.

(Although, just to quibble, it's a bit different to compare non-Americans commented on US politics to this. Our policies affect the rest of the world significantly. The subway strike in NY doesn't really have much direct impact on the rest of us. At least, not at the moment...)


Not to quibble but that's why I specifically referenced US domestic policy.

How we take care of people rendered homeless by Katrina, whether or not our government has ordered domestic wiretaps without warrants, and the extent to which the teaching of evolution is promoted or restricted in American schools (to name just three topics) has very little, if any, impact on non-Americans and yet they enjoy sharing their opinions with us. As far as I'm concerned, their welcome to.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 02:22 pm
I'm in Manhattan and as I don't have to get to work somewhere, the strike effects me very little. I have to get down to midtown tomorrow but I often do that walk 50 minute for pleasure in any case. It is cold here now, and I really feel for all the folks who are much less comfortable than I and have to walk both directions in the early and late hours when it is particularly chilly.

On the other hand, though just as a general principle (I'm not well informed as to issues in this particular case) I am supportive of workers' unions and the right to strike simply as a balance to the human tendency to accrete power at a singular and exclusive pinnacle of hierarchy.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 02:54 pm
In the case at hand New York State law forbids strikes by public employees. Do you oppose that law?

How would you feel about a simultaneous strike by the Police and Fire Departments?

I am all for protecting the workers right to refuse work. However the employer should have the same right to instantly replace them with other voluntary workers.
0 Replies
 
jpinMilwaukee
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 02:57 pm
Quote:
"These guys work every day. ... Why shouldn't their kids have good health care? Why shouldn't their kids be able to go to college?


What a garbage argument. Having a job does not guarantee the right of anything, let alone health care and their kids college tuition. Lots of people have jobs. Lots of people work everyday. What makes these people so damn special?

My sister lives in Queens and works in Manhattan... as waitress... for a lotless than 55k per year (before taxes). She is having a heck of a time even getting to work. I bet these people have no concern over her well being.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 03:21 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
In the case at hand New York State law forbids strikes by public employees. Do you oppose that law?

How would you feel about a simultaneous strike by the Police and Fire Departments?

I am all for protecting the workers right to refuse work. However the employer should have the same right to instantly replace them with other voluntary workers.


george

It's a good question, by which I mean that it doesn't have an easy answer. Of course it can be the case where a government can move into power which has a particular ideology that disfavors unionism and particularly strikes in what it deems "essential" services and will pass laws to enforce that view. So whether there is a law in place or not has real consequences for what those workers might decide but such a law doesn't necessarily speak wisdom.

And even where strikes are legal in civic services, the courts can be quickly drawn into the issue where civic damage may be deemed sufficient to bring about a work continuation order.

Again, it is a situation where valid but competing interests collide, and that never makes for easy and just decisions.

If I were in the position of enforcing (or not) the transit people back to work, I'm unsure what I would decide. That is because I am not familiar enough with the issues and the bargaining failure. I do not, though, hold to any certain stance on the matter.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 03:42 pm
Not only are they paid more than the average NY'ER and have a great fringe package they can if they have the time in retire on half pay at 55.
Unfortunately the MTA cannot do as Reagan did when the Air Controllers struck fire the whole kit and caboodle of overpaid greedy pigs. I hope the MTA does not relent and let both the union and workers off the hook on the imposed fines.
Unions in an essential service such as this should not be allowed to strike and be forced to settle contract disputes by binding arbitration.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 04:00 pm
Actually the governor of New York, supported by the Mayor could do what Reagan did in 1980 with respect to the Air Traffic Controller's Union. The situations are entirely analogous - illegal strikes by outlaw union locals attampting to shake down the government for above market wages by holding public (and private) transportation systems hostage, at great cost to the public. In Reagan's case he fixed not only the immediate problem, but also the long-term decline of an important public service at the hands of a self serving workforce caught in a cilture of extortion and fradulent misuse of disability rules. I suspect that even in that area there is an analogy with the NY Transit Authority.

Blatham,

A Public executive is sworn to enforce duly constituted laws, whether he/she personally likes them or not. if he isn't willing to do that he should resign.

Unionisn is becoming an anachronism in this country. It is growing only in government service - where it is generally needed least. It resists innovation and has generally contributed to the destruction of the industries it has dominated. I agree the unfettered labor exploitation of the 19th century needed a counterforce to limit its excesses. However all that is gone now. New conditions demand new solutions. Today unions are generally the problem, not the solution.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 04:03 pm
The TWU has a history of blackmailing or attempting to force MTA into an unreasonable contract. In I believe 1960 Mayor Lindsey gave away the city to settle with Mike Quill and his union. It took years to undo that fiasco. In Mayor Koch's time they tried again. However, he had the balls to stand up against their unreasonable demands. This time I hope the City and the MTA go for the jugular.
I should note the public has had it with the union.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 04:09 pm
george said:
Quote:
Blatham,

A Public executive is sworn to enforce duly constituted laws, whether he/she personally likes them or not. if he isn't willing to do that he should resign.

Unionisn is becoming an anachronism in this country. It is growing only in government service - where it is generally needed least. It resists innovation and has generally contributed to the destruction of the industries it has dominated. I agree the unfettered labor exploitation of the 19th century needed a counterforce to limit its excesses. However all that is gone now. New conditions demand new solutions. Today unions are generally the problem, not the solution.


Well, your first paragraph has convinced me on its merits and I'm forwarding it to the Bush administration for serious consideration.

But citizens always have the option, not necessarily an immoral option, of disregarding or violating laws they deem unfair or injust or not aligned with what they see as the overall good. The deal is that one is honest about it and faces the consequences if one makes that choice.

As to unionism as anachronism, we would disagree. As to need for new solutions, we would agree.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 04:16 pm
Quote:
Well, your first paragraph has convinced me on its merits and I'm forwarding it to the Bush administration for serious consideration.


Smile

The union won't give up. I wouldn't either. They are in an extremely powerful position. People normally don't give up from that too often.

And besides, if the whole thing falls through, why, they will have new, high-paying jobs waiting for them, because our economy is doing so good under BushCo that good jobs are pracitically creating themselves everywhere.

Right? 'cause that's what they keep saying...

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 04:21 pm
I believe you will be proven wrong. The union will give up and runs the serious risk of losing the loyalty of its members.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 04:56 pm
I keep seeing business figures thrown around, like 500 million in economic harm per day of the strike, and rising.

That's a strong position, is all I'm sayin.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 05:00 pm
On the face of it it is a strong position, as you say. However this is a union of public employees. If it loses public support in a situnation in which the government is opposed to it, I believe it is doomed.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Dec, 2005 05:04 pm
I think it's possible that the union itself might be doomed, especially given the long-term ramifications of the event.

But also taking into account the problems that it creates for the city, and the money lost; I don't think they will have to keep it up for very long. It was something like 23 degrees outside today.

My cousin in Manhattan says that the opinion is pretty much split over whether the guys are bastards or crazy bastards, but it's an important distinction; the crazy bastard may be somewhat admirable for his boldness (see Woiyo's love of GWB), whereas the other, isn't.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Dec, 2005 07:18 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
I think it's possible that the union itself might be doomed, especially given the long-term ramifications of the event.

But also taking into account the problems that it creates for the city, and the money lost; I don't think they will have to keep it up for very long. It was something like 23 degrees outside today.

My cousin in Manhattan says that the opinion is pretty much split over whether the guys are bastards or crazy bastards, but it's an important distinction; the crazy bastard may be somewhat admirable for his boldness (see Woiyo's love of GWB), whereas the other, isn't.

Cycloptichorn


You are either confused, or being sarcastic.

The TWU is wrong here. The MTA has been bargenning in good faith. Their current package and the offer from the MTA is more than reasonable and the City should stand firm and enforce the law. Penalize the members accoring to law, penalize the union according to law and hold the union leadership in contempt of court.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Dec, 2005 08:35 am
Why the MTA
is right...

With pensions, union has it made, says fiscal watchdog

By CHARLES BRECHER


Quote:
The MTA leadership deserves the public's support for insisting that pension reform be part of a settlement with the transit workers. The case for redesigning retirement benefits is based on two basic points:
Generous retirement benefits are no longer required to attract public-sector workers because most have higher wages than their private-sector counterparts.




The costs of continuing those benefits are growing rapidly, and the money could be better used to contain fare and tax increases or improve services.For decades the popular image of government employment included job security, wages that lag those of the private sector and relatively generous retirement benefits. But conditions have changed. Most local public employees now receive wages higher than those paid for similar work in the private sector, and they have far more generous retirement benefits.

The hourly earnings of state and local government employees exceed those of private-sector employees in the New York region by an average of 15% - $28.26 to $24.62. Blue-collar workers in the region are paid 30% more in the public sector than in the private sector. This pattern holds for the majority of jobs at the MTA.

With higher wages, the MTA and local public employees also enjoy exceptionally generous retirement benefits. With respect to pensions, most private-sector workers are part of "defined contribution" plans with pre-set employer contributions and with benefits not available until a worker is at least 59-1/2 years old. In contrast, the MTA workers and most municipal workers are guaranteed fixed benefits at age 55, with the benefits calculated under the unusual practice of including overtime in the base.

With respect to health insurance, retirees from the MTA and city (and their spouses) have the full premium cost paid by the city or the MTA; private employers rarely provide health insurance for retirees and, when they do, they typically pay only a fraction of the premium.

Generous pay and retirement benefits are no longer necessary to secure a qualified workforce. In the case of MTA car cleaners, for example, the MTA hires about 200 people per year; more than 28,000 individuals passed the exam - yielding about 140 qualified candidates for each opening.

And the generous retirement benefits are expensive. Health insurance premiums have grown at double-digit rates in recent years, and the MTA's pension fund contributions are projected to grow from $480 million in 2004 to $770 million in 2008.

For the city, the stakes are even greater with pension fund contributions growing from $2.3billion to $5 billion over the same period. The strike will have been worth suffering only if changes are achieved in the retirement benefits of future workers.

The state Constitution locks in the pension benefits of current workers and permits changes only for newly hired workers, and they should be the focus of attention. The savings from modernized pension benefits would come slowly as new workers are hired. The savings in the next few years may be tens of millions, but in the longer run, recurring savings can be in the hundreds of millions annually.

The MTA leadership is right to fight for that change, and New Yorkers who are concerned about future fare increases should support them.

Brecher is research director for the Citizens Budget Commission and a professor at NYU's Wagner School.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Dec, 2005 08:37 am
Editorial
Stanley Crouch
Quote:
Spoiled union sadly misses the point

So we are there, pushed into the middle of a contract dispute between city workers and their employers which results in a scramble of 7 million people trying to figure out how long they can stay at home or how they will get from one place to another in a city so dependent on mass transit. The strike does not seem to have anything to do with the usual complaint workers make when they walk off their jobs.

The striking members of the TWU are not being overworked, and when it comes to money, they have one of the sweetest deals in the entire United States. They pay only 2% of their salaries toward their pensions and cry as though they are having skin peeled from their backs because the MTA wants future workers to pay 6% - still better than the deal given to 95% of the workers in this nation.

As for pay, some transit workers, such as bus maintenance workers and train operators, make more money than many cops and teachers. If one has graduated from high school and can read, there are no barriers to competing for a transit job, whereas cops need a minimum of two years of college and teachers a full degree.

In all fairness and with all due respect, transit work requires skill, but not on the level of difficulty one faces in the job of teaching or law enforcement.

When we now watch our cops on emergency 12-hour shifts, I feel more than a bit of anger at how unfairly they are treated.

We know that the MTA's $1 billion surplus is not the result of the labors of the transit workers; it is the result of your taxes. Union members did not put in extra effort to bring about more income. In fact, 45% of that surplus is earmarked for the transit workers' pension fund. Not too shabby.

Have we gotten to the point where we should expect unions to ignore the hard facts and seek to make a frail goose into a layer of golden eggs? The troubles had by the Detroit car manufacturers and the airlines show that something new must be done because the weight of pension benefits can bankrupt a company.

In city employment that is not the problem exactly, but everybody is going to have to be ready to bite the bullet and maintain honor along the way. However it goes, you will see our ever reliable cops, who have surely accepted the bitter with the sweet, out there helping the city do the best it can as we make it through this transit mess.
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Dec, 2005 10:12 am
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/12/22/D8ELCU28E.html

Dec 22 11:06 AM US/Eastern

NEW YORK - A state mediator says the striking transit union has agreed to take steps to return members to work while talks resume.


The Mayor means business!!
0 Replies
 
 

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