Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Apr, 2013 06:52 am
@fresco,
My "headache" is with your pseudo quarrel with truth as you run from one "truth box" to another and not with meditation per se Fresco...perhaps by "suspension of the ego" you only meant suspension of the singular ego, otherwise one has to wonder what could you possibly mean ?
(the experience must always have a focal point)

PS - I am aware you were quoting but does that make your belief any less personnel ? I am debating your state of mind in this matter and not intellectual property...(nowadays intellectual property is an anecdotal subject)
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  2  
Reply Mon 8 Apr, 2013 10:28 am
Freedom is a transitional state between 2 prisons...per se its value consists in the traveling to authenticity (the ride is what matters)...perfect equilibrium's are dead pools of emptiness...
0 Replies
 
pgardner31
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 May, 2013 03:20 pm
0 Replies
 
pgardner31
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 May, 2013 03:24 pm
From our point of view in time, we have free will: "As many as received Him".
From God's view in eternity: "Chosen before the foundation of the world".
Logically, these are mutually exclusive. There is a limit to what our mind can perceive in spiritual matters.
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 May, 2013 07:15 pm
@pgardner31,
pgardner31 wrote:
From God's view in eternity: "Chosen before the foundation of the world".
Your reference to Ephesians 1:4 should not be take to mean that individuals were chosen by name before the founding of the world.

Had our eventualities been set in stone, Paul would not have reason to proclaim ". . . let him that thinks he is standing beware that he does not fall." (1Corinthians 10:12)
0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Sep, 2013 08:17 pm
Neologist pondered- "If God exists, does he, of necessity, foreknow, foreordain or otherwise control our destiny?"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Christians are split on the issue, some say he knows exactly what we're going to say and do, and others say he doesn't.
I fall into the latter camp for the simple reason he ordered Abraham to kill his son as a test, but at the last second told him to put the knife down with the words-
“Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.” (Genesis 22:12)

See, he said "NOW I know", which means he didn't know before the test.
In fact, the whole earth is a specially-made testing ground where nothing is pre-ordained-
"Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life.." (James 1:12)






0 Replies
 
carnaticmystery
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Dec, 2013 05:32 am
@neologist,
free will is a matter of perspective.

when you are presented with a choice, you start thinking of the options. options come from memory. the choosing process is by preference. preference occurs involuntarily, as an evolutionary survival mechanism; the infant learns to love the parents' smiles and hate their frowns.

even though in adulthood, the choosing process appears much more complex and individual, it is still an inbuilt, involuntary process. you can't actually make yourself like something if you don't like it. if you make yourself like it, it is only because you like something else more which requires you to like it. for example, you may force yourself to like healthy food in order to lose weight, but the preference to lose weight is primary and involuntary.

basically, people identify with their consciousness. the consciousness automatically likes and dislikes things, and people define that as their own likes and dislikes. then, whatever they do, they subsequently define as their free will. in that sense, free will exists to the individual.

in a deeper sense, because the choosing process is involuntary to our consciousness, who has the free will? we notice that preferences are happening in our consciousness, but cannot control them. therefore, if free will exists, it only exists to something else other than ourselves. ie. intelligence itself, which is beyond our individual control, has free will. some people might define that as god having free will.

in an absolute sense, one can question the very reality of all appearances and concepts, and indeed consciousness itself. at this point, free will becomes irrelevant and meaningless.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Dec, 2013 11:00 am
@carnaticmystery,
Since options come from memory, the individual's gene and environment are the basic controlling factors of "free will." The individual's culture, country, education, media, books, family and friends influence our thinking patterns. The individual's gene also has influence, because the brain works on chemicals that controls our thought processes. Mental illness can handicap a person's thinking process. Some have skills and abilities at very young ages that are based on that individual's gene and environment. Beethoven wrote his first sonata at age 12.

Where we are born, and who our parents are have the greatest influence. We do enjoy free will within those limits.

carnaticmystery
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Dec, 2013 07:52 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
The individual's gene also has influence, because the brain works on chemicals that controls our thought processes.

there is no evidence that any brain chemicals are involved causatively in the thought process. the entirety of conscious awareness has no medical or scientific explanation, and the theory that brain activity is causative is highly speculative. brain activity and thought may correlate, ie. certain brain states may always coincide with certain thought types, but this is not proof of causation.
Quote:
Mental illness can handicap a person's thinking process. Some have skills and abilities at very young ages that are based on that individual's gene and environment. Beethoven wrote his first sonata at age 12.

the thinking process is always unique in every individual. however, the human race has decided to normalise certain ways of thinking, and label others as mental illness. every mental illness is a set of diagnostic criteria which are subjective, personal experiences. anybody can claim to have them, and be diagnosed, there is no way of testing. the drugs which counter the mental illnesses all essentially dull the central nervous system, which is just like turning the sensory input down very low. in this way, the very thought process is reduced just because of less exposure.

interesting that you brought up music, which is one of the least understood creative processes. how can creative music come from the mind, if everything in the mind is based on memory. it is possible that from hearing other music, the preference system kicks in and decides what it likes. then when composing, similar melodies come to mind.
Quote:
Where we are born, and who our parents are have the greatest influence. We do enjoy free will within those limits.

i would object that we only 'enjoy free will' if we believe we do.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Dec, 2013 08:01 pm
@carnaticmystery,
Mental illness can be altered with drugs, and drugs can also alter ones feelings and thinking. There is no question that chemistry in the brain has an effect on individuals.

Subjective? When anyone can't control their own actions because of mental illness, it's not "free will."

As for the several genius in music such as Mozart and Beethoven, they had a predisposition for the music arts. Some other individuals have had special skills that cannot be explained. We sometimes label them genius.
carnaticmystery
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Dec, 2013 11:23 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Mental illness can be altered with drugs, and drugs can also alter ones feelings and thinking. There is no question that chemistry in the brain has an effect on individuals.

drugs alter brain chemistry. there is currently no scientific proof of any connection between brain chemistry and consciousness, only speculation. of course brain chemistry is related to the individual body, but not necessarily the mind, because the existence of mind cannot be scientifically verified. what is experienced as 'mind' is always a subjective experience, defined experientially but never scientifically.
Quote:
Subjective? When anyone can't control their own actions because of mental illness, it's not "free will."

nobody actually can control their actions, it only appears so because you are aware of decision-making process as it happens. but there is no way to alter the way your intellect functions.

people are labelled mentally ill, because they start to see that they have no control over their mind or their actions. they label their mind and actions as abnormal, and seek help for them. doctors tell them that they are mentally ill, and require CNS depressants (all antipsychotics/antidepressants/antianxiety etc). this drastically reduces all brain processes, and they 'feel better' because the 'abnormality' is lessened.

most genii also understand the lack of control over consciousness, and this why they are able to unleash it fully and create amazing things. the illusion of control over consciousness keeps it tied to belief systems and limitations.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Dec, 2013 11:51 pm
@carnaticmystery,
Who's talking about consciousness? In every case, one needs consciousness to make choices in the realm of free will.

Why are you responding on this thread if you have no control?

Illusion? You're way over your head.
carnaticmystery
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Dec, 2013 02:04 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Who's talking about consciousness? In every case, one needs consciousness to make choices in the realm of free will.

yes, obviously you need to be conscious to make a choice. i am saying the apparent 'choice' comes from an involuntary process of intellectual discrimination.
Quote:
Why are you responding on this thread if you have no control?

in my consciousness, i appear to be reading your responses. i am aware as my mind interprets your words, and develops an understanding. i am not in control of this process, my intellect automatically does it. so the process of me interpreting your words and developing a response is one single process, with no special point at which an individual exerts control.
Quote:
Illusion? You're way over your head.

yes, the choice is an illusion, in my opinion. my intellect automatically makes me respond in this way to you. i had no control over creating or developing my intellect. so i can't claim responsibility for its choices.

please prove to me your individual control over your intellect and choices. any choice you have ever made was based on opinions formed from past experiences. you couldn't control forming those opinions, they naturally happened, in response to the situations. if somebody cracks you in the face, you get angry and want to retaliate. can you control it? if you do appear to control it, it is again your intellect overriding the decision to retaliate with common sense. you didn't make the common sense appear, it happened by itself. whatever you think or do, it happens spontaneously, because thought is also spontaneous. you assume the identity of the thinker, and believe that you have choice, but intellect and mind operate involuntarily.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Dec, 2013 11:44 am
@carnaticmystery,
For a starter, I have visited over 200 countries and 89 unique ones. I planned those trips, paid for them, and experienced them. They were all part and parcel of my free will, because I had the means to satisfy my hobby in world travel. I have traveled seven times last year, seven times this year, and now have three trips planned for 2014.

They are not illusions; they are real, and I planned those realities all by myself!

I have a travelblog that I started three years ago, and now have over 34,000 hits on them. That's not an illusion; people from all over the world are enjoying my blogs.

You can stay in your illusionary state for as long as you wish; I'm otta here.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Dec, 2013 12:34 pm
@carnaticmystery,
Quote:
you assume the identity of the thinker, and believe that you have choice, but intellect and mind operate involuntarily.

That's why the English term 'free will' is confusing. You can't will yourself to will something else than your will... You're not free to will whatever. The French speak of free choice, which IMO is more precise and useful a term. It's perfectly possible to make a free choice, in the sense that this choice won't be forced on you by external factors.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Dec, 2013 02:25 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
You can't will yourself to will something else than your will...


But cm. would say, I presume, that your unfree will willed you to will something else other than your will. That your uncontrollable will was willing itself to prove it is free.

That's what the Marquis de Sade would have said I think.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Dec, 2013 05:59 pm
@spendius,
I only have 2 damn simple questions for you Spendius.

Do you accept there is cause and effect or not ?

If you do, materially speaking, why do you plead a special case for Humans ?
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Dec, 2013 06:23 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
1---I do.

2---Because humans are special. I don't see how matter evolved to get I'm a Celebrity, Get Me Out of Here otherwise, however large the Universe is.

I would listen to an explanation.
carnaticmystery
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Dec, 2013 08:25 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
For a starter, I have visited over 200 countries and 89 unique ones. I planned those trips, paid for them, and experienced them. They were all part and parcel of my free will, because I had the means to satisfy my hobby in world travel. I have traveled seven times last year, seven times this year, and now have three trips planned for 2014.

congrats. unfortunately no, it does not prove free will.
Quote:
They are not illusions; they are real, and I planned those realities all by myself!

and how did you plan them? because the thought that 'travelling is awesome' occurred involuntarily in your mind. the desire to travel happened to you because you naturally enjoyed travelling every time you did it in the past. so your brain automatically makes you keep travelling as much as possible.

Quote:
I have a travelblog that I started three years ago, and now have over 34,000 hits on them. That's not an illusion; people from all over the world are enjoying my blogs.

you can keep revolting against the word illusion. the only illusion is the ABSOLUTE existence of anything. of course you have your blog and your experiences and memories. of course you appeared to freely choose it all. but if you analyse your own mind properly, there is no way to alter the way your mind works.
Quote:
You can stay in your illusionary state for as long as you wish; I'm otta here.

ok, you go have fun with your free will. again, let me know when your prove it. proving it is not saying "i travel. i write blogs." hahahahah.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 2 Dec, 2013 08:40 pm
@carnaticmystery,
You,
Quote:
congrats. unfortunately no, it does not prove free will.


To me, it does. I'm otta here; you're not making any sense of the world I live in.
 

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