Free Will

Re: The way I see it...

bendragonbrown wrote:

I do believe in God. In my opinion, that surely for him to be omnipotent then he must surely know everything. So does this give us as a people free will? Well yes.

If he knows everything, wouldn't that include all of our actions, from birth till death?
If these actions are forknown, then they logically must be preordained. This removes any possibility of 'freewill' from the equation.

Another problem is if god knows 'everything' and has since before he created the earth, then at one time all the evil, misery, death, famine, rape, etc existed at one time exclusively in the mind of this god. This, of course, should raise problems for any believer.

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God just loves to watch the greatest show on earth. he he he... sort of takes the fun away, though, when he already knows the ending.

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Another thought: why did god even bother to sacrifice Jesus when he knew everytihng from the very beginning? I wonder how many will be going to heaven?

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Re: The way I see it...

Doktor S wrote:

bendragonbrown wrote:
I do believe in God. In my opinion, that surely for him to be omnipotent then he must surely know everything. So does this give us as a people free will? Well yes.

If he knows everything, wouldn't that include all of our actions, from birth till death?
If these actions are forknown, then they logically must be preordained. This removes any possibility of 'freewill' from the equation.

Another problem is if god knows 'everything' and has since before he created the earth, then at one time all the evil, misery, death, famine, rape, etc existed at one time exclusively in the mind of this god. This, of course, should raise problems for any believer.

Funny that you are able to see this, but my fellow 'thumpers' cannot. This is why I have consistently maintained that God (who can do whatever he durn well pleases) selectively applies his power of foreknowledge. It is obvious that the Bible writers understood this or they could never have penned verses urging fellow believers to "choose" (Deuteronomy 30:19; Joshua 24:15) or repent, or (I like this one) . . . "put on the new personality" . . . (Ephesians 4:24)

Of course, God having the free will to order the universe as he sees fit is essential to our having free will, for how could one not having this power impart it to those he created.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Another thought: why did god even bother to sacrifice Jesus when he knew everytihng from the very beginning? I wonder how many will be going to heaven?

Well, I for one am not expecting to go to heaven. After all, in order to get there you have to die first. . .
BUMMER!

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Yes, Neo, your particular strain of christian theology has chosen not to ignore this problem, and has tailored their exegesis accordingly. For that I would put you one step ahead of the competition.
One thing:

neo wrote:

Of course, God having the free will to order the universe as he sees fit is essential to our having free will, for how could one not having this power impart it to those he created.

I don't see how this follows. Why could not a god locked into a deterministic progression, given his own omnipotence, (omnipotence seems to work better within a deterministic framework to me) create beings that have freewill? It would seem that these created beings, given the absence of the the omnipotence of their creator, could logically have freewill while their creator did not.
Or how about a magically omnipotent, but selectively foreknowing deity, being outside of time itself, creating a deterministic universe?
I don't see how a freewilled god necessitates freewilled people.

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Doktor S wrote:

Yes, Neo, your particular strain of christian theology has chosen not to ignore this problem, and has tailored their exegesis accordingly. For that I would put you one step ahead of the competition.
One thing:

neo wrote:

Of course, God having the free will to order the universe as he sees fit is essential to our having free will, for how could one not having this power impart it to those he created.

I don't see how this follows. Why could not a god locked into a deterministic progression, given his own omnipotence, (omnipotence seems to work better within a deterministic framework to me) create beings that have freewill?. . .

Ya think he would do that on purpose? :wink:

Doktor S wrote:

. . . .
I don't see how a freewilled god necessitates freewilled people.

That's a different proposition, one which I did not propose. And certainly, animals fall into that category.

Note: In case anyone is wondering, this is my presumptuous attempt to revive this topic which I feel is essential to understanding the human condition.

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Did you revive this topic because you wanted to, or because you had to? :wink:

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It was bound to happen, given my personality.

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I'm not sure whether somebody has already said something about free will in these terms, but here goes.

Free will has many natural constraints such as the environment, economy, educational opportunities, and religion of the parents and/or community. It's also true how successful/lucky the individual is in terms of education, job opportunity, financial security, health, and environment (both economically, social infrastructure and health care), and access to transportation and communication.

We have observed too many countries where the corruption of government and other criminal elements have restricted their citizens from meeting their full potential as humans no matter how well educated or skilled in the crafts.

Free will is a many-sided subject for us humans.

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Imposter,

Would you agree that either humans have a free will, or they do not?

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real, Get a life.

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Are you saying he can do that by choice?

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Maybe he just had to say it.

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But he chose not to answer.

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Maybe he had to go wee wee, where's the free will in that?

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Its been 4 1/2 days!

Besides, the physical limitations to one's free will have been noted earlier in this thread.

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Quote:

As many as 1 to 2 million Americans can't urinate at all if there is someone else in the restroom. These people, mostly men, suffer from an anxiety disorder known as "avoidance paruresis" (sometimes called shy bladder, bashful bladder, or bladder shyness). By some estimates, 15 million more "low level paruretics" have some difficulty urinating when there is someone else at the next urinal or in the next stall.

http://mentalhealth.about.com/cs/anxietypanic/a/pee.htm

If free means unencumbered and will means the force by which an accomplishment is enabled, then there can be no free will within the context of the limitations of human physicality: case closed - not that it was ever open except in the minds of those that must adhere to the fallacy of needing to believe that there must be or must not be free will.

The free will argument itself has no validity in the demonstrable sense nor in the abstract sense. But I'd bet CI's bladder does not appreciate your ministrations.

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