Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Apr, 2006 07:35 pm
What I need to know is how free will examines push up brassieres.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Apr, 2006 08:19 pm
Setanta wrote:
neologist wrote:
Setanta wrote:
. . . Geeze, what a load of crap. How do you consider yourself to be qualified to define for everyone else what a word such as omniscient means? It means all-knowing--it doesn't mean anything else, and it doesn't mean anything less. What's that line of crap about "willfully screening things from his knowledge" supposed to mean? Do you suggest that an omniscient being (no sucha thing, without proof, and you've not offered any) could choose not to be all-knowing? It makes a ludicrous parody of your terms. . .
Not my idea. After hearing that others define omniscient as knowing all things by necessity, (including all future things) it is quite obvious to me that the word does not fit my understanding of God. I think I can make a reasonable argument from the bible to justify my understanding. In fact I have in several places.

But if, as you say, the bible is just a load of horsie poop, why would you bother to read it?

Unless you're just curious.


I did read it, three times, and out of curiosity, plain and simple. Specifically, though, i have said that the exegetics of the bible-thumpers is horsie poop.
Well, you're a nanny nanny nanny goat.

I'll dump more on you later.
0 Replies
 
kevnmoon
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Apr, 2006 06:37 pm
Re: Free Will
neologist wrote:
Whether you believe in God or not, the subject of free will is an interesting issue.

.



Dear Neologist,
I send you frrewill and relationship with destiny..


Divine Determining and the power of choice are aspects of a belief pertaining to state and conscience which show the final limits of Islam and belief; they are not theoretical and do not pertain to knowledge.

That is to say, a believer attributes everything to Almighty God, even his actions and self, till finally the power of choice confronts him, so he cannot evade his obligation and responsibility.

It tells him: "You are responsible and under obligation." Then, so that he does not become proud at his good deeds and his achievements, Divine Determining confronts him, saying: "Know your limits; the one who does them is not you.

" Yes, Divine Determining and the power of choice are at the final degrees of belief and Islam; the former has been included among the matters of belief to save the soul from pride, and the latter, to make it admit to its responsibility.

Obdurate evil-commanding souls clinging to Divine Determining in order to clear themselves of the responsibility of the evils they have committed, and their becoming proud and conceited on account of the virtues bestowed on them and their relying on the power of choice, are actions totally opposed to the mystery of Divine Determining and wisdom of the power of choice; they are not matters pertaining to knowledge which might give rise to such actions.

For ordinary people who have not progressed spiritually there may be occasions when Divine Determining is used, and these are calamities and disasters when it is the remedy for despair and grief.

But it should not be used to justify rebellion and in matters of the future so that it becomes a cause of dissipation and idleness.

That is to say, Divine Determining has not been included among the matters of belief to relieve people from their obligations and responsibility, but to save them from pride and conceit. While the power of choice has been included in order to be the source of evils, not to be the source of virtues, so that people become like the Pharaoh.

Yes, as the Qur'an states, man is totally responsible for his evils, for it is he who wants the evils. Since evils are destructive, man may perpetrate much destruction with a single evil act, like burning down a house with one match, and he becomes deserving of an awesome punishment.


However, he does not have the right to take pride in good deeds; his part in them is extremely small. For what wants and requires the good deeds is Divine mercy, and what creates them is dominical power. Both request and reply, reason and cause, are from God.


Man only comes to have them through supplication, belief, consciousness, and consent. As for evils, it is man's soul that wants them, either through capacity or through choice, ?-like in the white and beautiful light of the sun some substances become black and putrefy, and the blackness is related to their capacity?- however, it is Almighty God Who creates the evils through a Divine law which comprises numerous benefits.


That is to say, the cause and the request are from the soul, so that it is the soul which is responsible, while it is Almighty God Who creates the evils and brings them into existence, and since they have other results and fruits which are good, they are good.

It is for the above reason that the ?'acquisition' (kasb) of evil, that is, the desire for evil, is evil, but the creation of evil is not evil. A lazy man who receives damage from rain, which comprises many instances of good, may not say that the rain is not mercy.

Yes, together with a minor evil in its creation are numerous instances of good. To abandon that good for a minor evil becomes a greater evil. Therefore, a minor evil becomes like good. There is no evil or ugliness in Divine creation. They rather pertain to His servant's wish and to his capacity.

Furthermore, Divine Determining is both exempt from evil and ugliness with regard to results and fruits, and free from tyranny and ugliness with respect to reason and cause. Because Divine Determining looks to the true causes and acts justly.


Men construct their judgements on causes which they see superficially and fall into error within the pure justice of Divine Determining. For example, a judge finds you guilty of theft and sends you to prison. You are not a thief, but you have committed a murder which no one knows about.

Thus, Divine Determining also sentenced you to imprisonment, but it sentenced you for the secret murder and acted justly. Since the judge sentenced you for a theft of which you were innocent, he acted unjustly.

Thus, in a single thing the justice of Divine Determining and Divine creation and man's wrongful choice or acquisition were apparent in two respects; you can make analogies with this for other things. That is to say, with regard to origin and end, source and branch, cause and results, Divine Determining and creation are exempt from evil, ugliness, and tyranny.'' BSN 26.Word
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Apr, 2006 04:57 pm
You have a way with words, kev.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Apr, 2006 05:11 pm
One hopes that is dry humor, given that you usually appear to be intelligent . . .
0 Replies
 
queen annie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Apr, 2006 05:52 pm
Chumly wrote:
What I need to know is how free will examines push up brassieres.


With 'Roman' hands and 'Russian' fingers??? Embarrassed
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Apr, 2006 07:46 pm
Setanta wrote:
One hopes that is dry humor, given that you usually appear to be intelligent . . .
In fact, when I laughed, my lips cracked.

The pain . . .
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Apr, 2006 05:32 am
Just to be sure, you are aware, are you not, Neo, that Kevnmoon is just cuttting and pasting the too-long drivel of his "master," and that there is little evidence in these fora that he (Kevnmoon) has ever had and expressed a coherent thought? That is not to say that he is either stupid or commonly incoherent--just that he provides no evidence to the contrary.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Apr, 2006 08:50 am
Setanta wrote:
Just to be sure, you are aware, are you not, Neo, that Kevnmoon is just cuttting and pasting the too-long drivel of his "master," and that there is little evidence in these fora that he (Kevnmoon) has ever had and expressed a coherent thought? That is not to say that he is either stupid or commonly incoherent--just that he provides no evidence to the contrary.
Yeah, but I think he is basically a good guy. . .

'Scuse me while I put on some chap stick.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Apr, 2006 09:28 am
Actually, although it may not be evident, i have laid off the boy, precisely because i think he is a "good guy" . . . pass that over when you're done . . .
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Apr, 2006 09:43 am
The chap stick?

You'd probably prefer a new one. . .
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Apr, 2006 09:44 am
Don't get too literal, now . . .
0 Replies
 
kevnmoon
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Apr, 2006 02:33 pm
Thanks, what you say about me comes from your goodness.

Perhaps translations can not preserve orginal thoughts and may be little mirror..

These chapters r builded on Qur'anic terminology.. English never cover this terminology.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Apr, 2006 05:03 pm
Kev, I have trouble understanding your posts.
I mean real trouble.
I am a man of simple words.
If you make your posts shorter, I can perhaps work with you on your terminology.
For instance, why is it not possible to express Qur'anic terminology in English?

Does the true God require knowledge of Arabic for salvation?
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Apr, 2006 07:53 pm
queen annie wrote:
Chumly wrote:
What I need to know is how free will examines push up brassieres.


With 'Roman' hands and 'Russian' fingers??? Embarrassed
Cute!
0 Replies
 
kevnmoon
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Apr, 2006 03:03 pm
Mr. Neologist,
Every language has a different beauty. Translations in all languages not as well as orginal. There are many Arabic words in Turkish. Also some Turkish Qur'an interpretations are use some special Arabic terms. Many Turkish People only read Qur'an, but don't understand. But they read translations and understand general concepts. But, as I said Qur'an can not translate as well as orginal..

For example.. letter, writer, the art of writing well, school, book words in Arabic come from same word. (He wrote) verb patern is changed to many words. Every verb is same position in Arabic. So there r many relationship amongs verbs and words. In translation relationships go away.

For example.. ALLAH is one word with five letters. If you lessen letters one and one it preserve meaning.
Allah : Allah-God
Lillah : For Allah
Lehu : To Allah
Hu : He (for Allah)

Allah Mathematic Mean is 66… Hilal (crescent) mathematic mean is 66 too. So, We don't write Allah on Turkish Flag, but put crescent as a symbol of Allah. It is our regard for Allah.
You know crescent is Islam symbol all over the world, because of that.

Qur'an Arabic contains so much things.

Every Prophet has specilities.. Jesus (AS) on Medical, David (AS) on mountains and iron,… Hz. Muhammed (ASM) on eloquence ..
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Apr, 2006 06:45 pm
But kev;

Does the true God require knowledge of Arabic for salvation?
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Tue 11 Apr, 2006 06:56 pm
neologist wrote:
But kev;

Does the true God require knowledge of Arabic for salve?
Extra points for multiple punning!
0 Replies
 
kevnmoon
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Apr, 2006 12:54 am
No there is no need to Arabic for salvation..
Also you may pray in English.. If you know a little orginal things from Qur'an , it may be better. God looks to heart.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Reply Wed 12 Apr, 2006 01:22 am
OK thanks kevmoon I understand.
0 Replies
 
 

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