Rehabilitation & Return to Society - Anybody Remember That?

"Finding redemption" and "keeping them locked up", in Williams' case, are not mutually exclusive terms.

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Anyone who thinks that race is not a central part of this debate is just not aware.

Tookie is being lionized by parts of the black establishment as a man who was once bad but now is good. Besides, capital punishment is bad anyway.

Why do we need a double standard? Blacks who commit heinous crimes are to be subject to the same standards as anyone else.

Or are they?

Mary Mitchell- A STALWART AFRICAN AMERICAN WHO WRITES A COLUMN FOR THE CHICAGO SUN TIMES HAS GIVEN US SOME EXCERPTS FROM HER HANDBOOK--"What Blacks can do; What Whites Can't."

Source- Chicago Sun Times-Sunday November 6, 2005, P. 14A

quote:

"Blacks can call the ghetto "fabulous", whites can't even call it the ghetto"

"Blacks can wear gold chains, flash gold teeth and carry gold canes, Whites can't"

"Blacks can wear dreadlocks, braids, twists and afros, Whites can't"

"Blacks can shave their heads; whites can't shave their heads, because only white supremacists shave their heads"

"Blacks can call each other the N word, and, of course, whites can't call blacks the N-word. For example, recently state Sen. and the Rev. James Meeks said police officers often stop drivers in cars they deem to be "N------mobiles" . A white state senator would have been tossed out of office for the same remark."

"Blacks shoot up their neighborhoods, rob the elderly, rape women, abuse children and kill each other, and whites can't say anything about that lest they be accused of stereotyping the black community"

"Black gangs can run amok: whites can't even label black thugs a gang"

"Blacks can use racial slurs to exclude other blacks from the political arena; Whites can't"

"The latest example of this phenomenon is Michael Steele, A Republican and lieutenant governor of Maryland. Steele is trying to become the first black senator elected from that state, But Steele has been subjected to the worst racial slurs imaginable. At one debate, a group of black people pelted the stage with Oreos. Last week, a black liberal businessman with a blog depicted Steele as a black faced minstrel and 'SAMBO"

END OF QUOTE

I will add one to Ms. Mitchell's excellent list.

"Blacks can demand that executions of proven scumbags and murderers like Tookie Williams be stopped. Whites can't approve that the penalty be carried out since they will be viewed as racists. What garbage!!!!

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How many serious voices have we heard trumpeting the call for clemency for "Tookie?"

I've heard serious voices express a hope that Arnold spares Tookie, but they have all couched this expression in the context of their universal opposition to capital punishment. A fair number of these serious voices acknowledge that if we are to have capital punishment, Tookie deserves it.

Tookie isn't getting this special attention because he is black. There have been quite a few black men killed by the State who didn't have Jamie Foxx or Snoop Dogg pleading their cases.

(I guess in the case of Foxx, it depends upon whether or not the State intends to kill someone on his birthday.)

Tookie in his own way is a celebrity, and so it is only natural that he will attract the attention of other celebs (and they are by no means all black).

It's cool, my brother, to stop The Man from snuffing Tookie!

What has Tookie done since he murdered four innocents? (Not members of rival gangs but four people just like you and me).

He's written childrens books which warn kids away from joining gangs.

OK, that's good to see, but does it even the score on four taken lives?

He will not admit that he killed these people, even though the evidence is overwhelming that he did.

He will not in any way cooperate with authorities to bust gangs in prisons or on the streets. Tookie can't be no snitch! Tookie is an honorable murderer.

Personally, I am against capital punishment, but only because I do not want the State to have the legal power to kill its citizens. From a moral standpoint, I have no problem with the notion that come Monday of next week the State of California will be injecting death-juice into Tookie's vein.

Redemption does not require a quid pro quo of clemency.

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Stanley Crouch- A syndicated AFRICAN-AMERICAN columnist writes in the Chicago Sun Times- today--ON p. 59

HEADLINE

"Not Buying the Tookie Hustle"

...the death penalty and race have become so interwoven that some assume that if a black man is on Death Row, it has something to do with bias and an unrepresentative jury pool...Does that mean that Williams should have had a jury of ruthless gang leaders in order for him to have been tried by his peers? The hard fact is that since 1980, street gangs have killed 10,000 people in Los Angles which is three times the number of black people lynched between 1877 and 1900, the highest tide of racial murder in the history of the nation.

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There is another thread that deals specifically with whether or not Tookie deserves clemency, so it is redundant to keep beating it here.

This thread was intended to deal wih the larger question of what the membership thinks about the entire concept of rehabilitation. Are prisons basically for punishment, or "correction"? Is the justice system too concerned with "fixing" prisoners, or not concerned enough? If we don't think rehabilitation is realistic for most or some, where do we draw the line? Do our attitudes about the potential for redemption of criminals say anything about our general opinion about the nature of humans?

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Potential for redemption?

Sure!! All we have to do is to adopt the philosophy behind the French phrase--"To understand everything is to forgive everything"---I guess that could be done.
However, if it was done fairly, there could be no more second guessing our politicians.

Katrina? We did the best we could.

Iraq?---He hit me first

Tax Cuts?--I really don't think I am being unfair.

***********************************************************

Cut the crap-- Tookie is a murderer and the race carders are out in force with thier usual garbage of "He wouldn't be facing the death penalty if our society wasn't so racist."

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Mortkat wrote:

Potential for redemption?

Sure!! All we have to do is to adopt the philosophy behind the French phrase--"To understand everything is to forgive everything"---I guess that could be done.
However, if it was done fairly, there could be no more second guessing our politicians.

Katrina? We did the best we could.

Iraq?---He hit me first

Tax Cuts?--I really don't think I am being unfair.

***********************************************************

Cut the crap-- Tookie is a murderer and the race carders are out in force with thier usual garbage of "He wouldn't be facing the death penalty if our society wasn't so racist."

Would it be too much to ask of you to post your -- opinions -- about Tookie on the thread dedicated specifically to that subject?

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Is this thread named "Rehabilitation and return to society"?

If it is, it's about the murderous "tookie" who was the leader of the Crips in LA. They murdered countless people.

As morally repulsive as he was, Herman Goering admitted his guilt and killed himself in his cell before he could be hanged.

I wonder if Tookie has read-Judgement at Nuremberg?

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Mortkat wrote:

Is this thread named "Rehabilitation and return to society"?

If it is, it's about the murderous "tookie" who was the leader of the Crips in LA. They murdered countless people.

As morally repulsive as he was, Herman Goering admitted his guilt and killed himself in his cell before he could be hanged.

I wonder if Tookie has read-Judgement at Nuremberg?

You're a racist idiot, beyond being reasoned with. You are a waste of time and energy for anyone that wishes productive exchange, and a living example of why A2K desperately needs an "ignore" function.

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In the movie "The Producers", the author of the play, a unreconstructed Nazi insisted that Hitler liked children and flowers.

You see- He was not really a monster. How could he be?

And Richard Speck--he had a terrible home life. His mother beat him and that's why he murdered all those nurses.

John Wayne Gacy??- Just a misunderstood man who could have vented his rages if he had only joined the French Foreign Legion.

When will America learn that facile excuses do nothing to preserve the lives of innocent people caught up in the crossfire? It is well known that Blacks murder each other rather than other races.

How many black widows were left to raise their children alone because of the Crips?

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snood wrote:

There is another thread that deals specifically with whether or not Tookie deserves clemency, so it is redundant to keep beating it here.

This thread was intended to deal wih the larger question of what the membership thinks about the entire concept of rehabilitation. Are prisons basically for punishment, or "correction"? Is the justice system too concerned with "fixing" prisoners, or not concerned enough? If we don't think rehabilitation is realistic for most or some, where do we draw the line? Do our attitudes about the potential for redemption of criminals say anything about our general opinion about the nature of humans?

"Redemption does not require a quid pro quo of clemency."

Regardless of what anyone might argue the main goal of prisons is incarceration, not rehabilitation, and this is reasonable.

It is all well and good to say that we should rehabilitate rather than punish criminals, but this is a requirement which current society cannot meet.

The world is full of sad cases involving perfectly honest individuals. I would prefer we spend our resources and time on bettering these people's lives than those of the ones who have decided that they can and should live above and beyond the law.

You may or may not remember the infamous Bernard Goetz. He was a New Yorker a couple of decades ago who pulled a gun and shot several black youths who were "asking him for change."

The facts of the case were fairly clear: The youths were menacing Goetz, and attempting to coerce him into giving them money. This was not a case of a few harmless beggars asking for some change. Arguably, the reaction of Goetz (repeatedly shooting the youths with his gun) was far beyond the actual peril he experienced.

Personally, I think Goetz crossed the line, but at the same time, I have no sympathy for the youths he shot and crippled.

None of them ever would have been shot if they had not tried to mug (subtlely or otherwise) a subway passenger. Millions of youths, both black and white abide by the law every day, no matter what their social setting may be. Those that do not, do not have a right to a second chance.

Remember that silly show Baretta? From it came one rather profound statement: If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Everyone who commits a crime has made a conscious choice.

If they truly repent and devote their lives to redemption, than it is appropriate that society acknowledge their efforts in some way.

Tookie is not truly repentant and has not devoted his life to redemption.

9 children books with his Bad Ass Crips visage in the upper right corner of the cover does not equate to devotion to redemption.

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Finn d'Abuzz wrote:

It is all well and good to say that we should rehabilitate rather than punish criminals, but this is a requirement which current society cannot meet.

Any idea why it works - more or less quite reasonable well - in other societies than the US'?

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
It is all well and good to say that we should rehabilitate rather than punish criminals, but this is a requirement which current society cannot meet.

Any idea why it works - more or less quite reasonable well - in other societies than the US'?

I don't know that it does.

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Finn d'Abuzz wrote:

I don't know that it does.

Well, it does. You may ask Lord E about his experiences in Her Majesty's Probation oOfice or my own here from Germany (which includes experoiences in the rehab in prisons as well).

Or just use the web to get some infos.

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Finn- I am very much afraid that you do not occupy the moral high ground.

Can't you see that Germany has a higher level of civilization. They are far more progressive than we are. They do not want to return to barbarism--or maybe they are just trying to assuage their consciences because they murdered six million Jews.

No one can tell me that the execution of "tookie" will not have a salutary effect among the "gangbangers" in LA who view him as a leader. If Tookie's death spares the life of even a few innocents in the future, it will be worth while. People tend to forget that he was found GUILTY of murder by a jury of his peers.

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Quote:

Man Says He Didn't Hurt Woman

He hopes police keep looking for her killer

By JACQUELINE SEIBEL
[email protected]

Posted: Jan. 18, 2006

Mukwonago - The boyfriend of the woman who was found dead in a ditch in Vernon this month said he expected people would think he had something to do with her death.

But Michael O'Haver said tearfully Wednesday that he didn't hurt Gail Masset, 38.

"I was the last one to see her. I lived with her. I knew they would look at me first," O'Haver said. But he said he hopes investigators look past him.

"I hope they keep looking for the right person," he said.

O'Haver has domestic violence convictions, including one in October involving a former live-in girlfriend.

District Attorney Paul Bucher is calling Masset's death a homicide, but the Waukesha County Sheriff's Department has not named any suspects and continues to call this a "death investigation."

On Friday, Waukesha County sheriff's investigators searched O'Haver's home, collecting a plastic bag and three cigarette butts.

"They can tear the house apart if they want, I didn't do anything to her. I don't care what they are looking for. I got nothing to hide," O'Haver said.

"I want to know that everything is being done to find out what happened to her," he said.

He said he doesn't know who would have killed Masset. She never said she feared anyone, and she would not speak of her past, he said.

Masset's body was found along Craig Ave. by a local resident who was walking and picking up trash along the roadway. Her severely beaten body was about 20 feet from the road. A bloody bag containing human hair was found near her body.

A search warrant affidavit released Tuesday said she was struck by a blunt object to the head, she was bruised and had a fractured vertebrae in her neck.

The affidavit details O'Haver's violent history with women. O'Haver said the incidents with his former live-in girlfriend were exaggerated and often she was the aggressive one.

In October, O'Haver was convicted of disorderly conduct-domestic abuse for three situations involving his then live-in girlfriend. He was placed on probation for one year, received a stayed 30-day jail sentence and was ordered to attend domestic violence counseling, and alcohol and other drug treatment.

The conviction stems from three situations in April and May at which time O'Haver threw his former girlfriend to the floor, picked up a folding table and threatened to throw it at her three times, laughing each time, records say.

In another incident, O'Haver put a chicken carcass in her purse, records say. He also head-butted and slapped her face during an argument, records say.

He was convicted of battery in 2003 for a case involving another live-in girlfriend and he was convicted in 2000 of battery involving a 14-year-old girl, records say.

O'Haver and Masset knew each other in high school, but both married and had children with other people. After running into Masset's mother, Karyl, last summer, phone numbers were exchanged, and the two connected again. Masset moved into his home in the 500 block of Grand Ave. in Mukwonago in October.

O'Haver told investigators that the couple had a fight on Nov. 20 after Masset found a picture of O'Haver's former girlfriend. She called her daughter Valerie Le May later that night and asked if she could stay with her, but she never did.

Masset was reported missing on Nov. 23 by O'Haver and her father, Tony Masset of Big Bend.

O'Haver said it isn't fair to bring up his past and assume he is responsible for Masset's death. It's making the situation worse, he said.

"She was the most important person in the world to me, and people are pointing fingers at me," he said. They were planning a spring wedding, he said.

A funeral for Masset will be at 11:30 a.m. Saturday at St. Joseph's Catholic Church, S89-W22650 Milwaukee Ave., Big Bend. Visitation begins at 9:30 a.m. Max A. Sass & Sons Funeral Home is handling the arrangements.

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Mortkat wrote:

No one can tell me that the execution of "tookie" will not have a salutary effect among the "gangbangers" in LA who view him as a leader. If Tookie's death spares the life of even a few innocents in the future, it will be worth while. People tend to forget that he was found GUILTY of murder by a jury of his peers.

Unfortunately, death penalty has not proven to be a deterrent for violent crime. People who kill mostly kill on a basis of an urge, a disease, mental disability, twistedness, whathaveyou... they don't think about the punishment or if, it even adds to the thrill.

Punishment, vengeance, yes. But it isn't a deterrent of violent crime. Look up any public administration textbook, you'll see stats there.

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Rehabilitation & Return to Society - Anybody Remember That?

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