Kind of you to say so, osso. And good point re John Creasy - I fear he may have decided the pack had siezed this thread now, and was worrying it like a hunk of hapless rope - he hasn't been around for a few pages, and the discussion wandered way off track long before that. He may be owed something of an apology for that methinks.
Naaahhh ... this sorta thing happens allatime - part of the local color, ya know. Entertains the tourists.
You freakin micks are always spoilin a perfectly good thread!
Na I'm Irish too and I love history. All I know is that my first ancestor to come to this country on my father's side came from Ireland about 1880. I don't know where in Ireland he was from and I haven't really looked into my mother's side.
Hey, John - good to see we didn't run you off.
Ya know why the Irish have Whisky and the Arabs have oil?
God gave the Irish first pick.
Do ya know why God made Whisky?
To keep the Irish from ruling the world.
<insert rimshot here>
Oh, yeah, and listen here, me boyo, if you'll be wantin' this thread back, you're gonna be havin' ta roll up your sleeves and try to take it
lol, Why did God make pubs???
To keep the Irish from getting skin cancer.
What's the difference between an Irish wedding and an Irish funeral??
One less drunk.
We have already outlined above some of the benefits to be derived of a Military/National Service Program for all young people between the ages of 18 and 23, and argued the Constitutionality of such a program.
Now let's think a bit about why such a program would be a disaster, and should not be considered.
Size and Scope of program. The 2000 census reports a total population of 20,219,890 in the 15-19 cohort out of a U.S. population of 248,709,873. That's just a little less than 10% of our whole population, that would be shifted into government service with all that entails. Of course not everyone in the cohort would be included for a number of reasons, primarily mental/physical incapacity and opting out of the program. If 10% of the pool are excluded we are still left with 246,687,884 young people thrust into government service. For convenience and to be conservative about it, let's round the number to 240 million, far less than 90% of the cohort included in the program.
I'm going to focus now mostly on the military, since a robust and highly effective military establishment already exists. We can't say how many would opt for military service, but let's suppose that number to be 10%. That gives us an increase of 24,000,000 people in uniform. The impact on our military establishment and the nation would doubtless be great. Consider the costs of providing uniforms, basic equipment, and training alone. Some industries would acquire huge contracts, and have to expand their workforces in a labor market already deprived of about 10% of the total population. Wages and costs would skyrocket. Imagine how many facilities would be required to train the recruits as long as the program lasted. Training would have to be provided by experienced military cadre, so our existing forces would have to be stretched to provide that training. If we promoted every E-2 in the military to E-5, there wouldn't be enough DI's to properly train all the recruits. If every E-5 was commissioned and we increased the Officer Corps 20 times, there wouldn't be enough officers of high quality to lead the newly swollen forces. The whole of our professional military would be shifted from the point of the spear to the tail of a large and sluggish beast. Until the recruits could be trained/equipped up to minimum standards, the whole system would become totally ineffective. Now add onto that the wages and benefits currently offered to military personnel, which are often cited as being far too frugal to maintain the sort of expertise needed in the modern military. The short answer is, that the military would be ruined, and the nation left defenseless in a dangerous world. And, to arrive at that frightenng result the costs to the National Treasury that would make every past National Debt look insignificant.
Now add onto the already negative effects noted above the costs of providing a college education for something like 2,000,000 students out of the military component of the program.
As disastrous as the effect on the military, the problems with establishing a National Service Program for the remaining 90% of the 240,000,000 members of the cohort are even worse. First, there is no existing infrastructure, and so one would have to be built up almost overnight. That is a certain path to inefficiency, error, and downright malfeasance. An instant Federal bureaucracy would come into being charged with finding/funding worthy projects to occupy the some 238,000,000 young people in service. Where and how would they be trained, housed and supervised? How much skill, experience and use would the nation receive from turning loose over 200,000,000 teenagers to provide some sort of service? Chaos.
If even 10% of that number qualified for a college education, the taxpayers would have to provide funds for almost 24,000,000 students. That is a total higher education program that would fund 26,000,000 college educations!
Public Policy. It is possible that after five years our economy might readjust itself, and become again stable. That is by no means certain. During the first five years of the program the economy and society would be in shambles. Our foreign policy and place as a leader in the world destroyed. Our enemies would rejoice as our friends reeled under the effect of an America brought to its knees by its own short-sightedness.
Institution of the proposed Military/National Service Program would be the most drastic departure in history from our National Weltanschauung
and for no real and certain benefit. This program would in effect put more power into the hands of the Federal Government than was ever contemplated by our fathers, grandfathers and the Founding Fathers. Almost everyone would be in some manner an employee of the Federal Government, or dependant upon it. The power of local and State governments would be further eroded, if not totally destroyed as a by-product of massive Federally run social projects took over. Social projects.
Do we want the Federal Government running pre-schools, and social engineering in our villages and inner-cities? Projects with high capitalization like the transportation network, might well play second-fiddle to the less expensive cost of posting a teams of semi-trained teenagers to counsel the poor in debt reduction techniques. How would we like to send our kids into battle under the leadership of a Captain who only a year earlier was a Corporal? What lessons in personal responsibility and discipline would this program really teach?
Er... I think ya got your numbers confused there, Asherman....
Which numbers Drew? The cohort sizes are derived from the 2000 census. Have I misplaced a decimal? I tend to do that from time-to-time. Even so the impacts are still far too great for the nation to seriously consider any such program.
You state "a U.S. population of 248,709,873" and "246,687,884 young people thrust into government service."
Current number at
http://www.census.gov shows a U.S. population of 297,820,108.
I think you let your zeros get a little ahead of the game, Asherman ... the concept comes across none the less. Good points.
Just a quickthought exercise here - do you think the impact would be lessened if the eligibility were to be phased in - perhaps over some decades? Perhas applicable only to those coming of a certain age in each successive year? That age need not be 18 or 19, either, necessarilly. Of course, alonf with "Opt out", there would be "Opt in" - and perhaps an age window could be applied there too. That way, I think society/economy would adjust fairly smoothly, and given that the education and personal discipline rating of the populace would be expected to benefit, so should the national productivity and output - the economy should grow apace, accommodating the plan as it expands, a synyergy, a symbiosis, as it were.
See what a hash I can make of things without a competent staff.
The cost in dollars and decreased effectiveness/efficiency of the military would alone make this sort of National Service Program a non-start in my opinion. The military could and should be somewhat larger, but should remain a professional volunteer force with high standards. Even a modest military draft would be a serious step backward from where we currently are. Expanding the forces by perhaps 10% would be much less expensive, even if we were to increase salaries and benefits commensurate with what we expect of these fine troops. Better compensation and a modest increase in authorized staffing levels would probably increase the effectiveness/efficiency of the military, but adding a huge pool of amateurs would be a big mistake.
National Service, without swelling the ranks of the military, looks to me like a quagmire that would out-cost all existing social programs by a very large margin. Giving Washington more power over a significant percentage of our population could only quicken trends toward a socialist government and central planning. Both socialism and central planning have terrible records as a means for delivering liberty to large populations. This is the sort of nonsense one expects from the far left wing, and that alone makes me shiver.
Pretty much with ya there, Asherman, pragmatics-wise. But its a given no such paradigm could pertain in The US, so we're perfectly free to explore the propositiomn on utopian terms, methinks. Not to any effect beyond entertainment and diversion, of course, but providing both though nothing else. Fun is good, so long as it is recognized and practiced for what it is.
The effect on the economy, with unemployment at just 5% would not be a good thing.
Not to mention all of the other government programs that depend on that Social Security money rolling in.
Any way if you think about it. By 21, people have jobs, or are at colledges/universitys training for them. whos going to wait 3/5 years for enlistment?
@FreeDuck,
My son has ruined his life because he thought he was ready to go into the Air Force at 17, now, drinking has caused him to be thrown out of the military and his civilian life at 27 years old is a failure. He has be in law enforcement with three jobs and finally his drinking has cost him his third and final career oportunity. With a general discharge, he has very little future. His lack of maturity at 17 years old "helped" to lead him to wrong decisions, now at 27 he has a messed up life and no direction. I believe the military should have picked up on this and got him some help. He had successfully completed air traffic control school, then was stuck out in Clovis NM in the desert with nothing to do at 17 when he was off. The rest, unfortunately is history. I personally hold the "military" responsible for not testing "maturity" as well as aptitude upon entry. Signed: Viet Nam Verteran, (We've learned nothing)
