Liberal Hypocrisy about Intelligent Design

Parados,

No they are not contradictory. I said if someone uses GD I always tell them God's last name is not damn.

I don't understand your second question (last line that is) at all.

The New Testament is about the teachings of Christ. Not every word in the New Testament is uttered by Christ.

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Lets look at Romans 1:26 in context.. It compares homosexuality to gossip, slander and not obeying your parents.

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26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Homosexuality isn't much worse than arrogance and insolence. Something everyone is guilty of. Do you support laws to outlaw arrogance? how about to outlaw boasting?

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Momma Angel wrote:

Parados,

No they are not contradictory. I said if someone uses GD I always tell them God's last name is not damn.

I don't understand your second question (last line that is) at all.

The New Testament is about the teachings of Christ. Not every word in the New Testament is uttered by Christ.

No support of laws? No worry that children will be confused? I see a double standard in sins that belies your claim that all sins are equal.

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The words of Christ are quite different from the words of Paul. Christ never once mentions homosexuality. You say you follow the beatitudes. Which one again tells you that homosexuality is a sin? I don't seem to remember them all.

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parados,

I think to God, a sin is a sin. I don't think He has degrees for it. I don't know that for a fact. I just said I don't think He does. Just as I would teach my children that lying is a sin, stealing is a sin, murder is a sin, etc., I would tell them homosexuality is a sin. I did not say that I PERSONALLY THINK ALL SIN IS EQUAL. I said I think to God all sin is equal. And, I didn't say I know it is equal to Him because I do not know that for sure. That's a big difference there.

Of course to a human being, telling a lie is not going to be as bad as murder. But, I don't think on the same level as God does so I can't say for sure about degree of sin for Him.

Parados Wrote:

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The words of Christ are quite different from the words of Paul. Christ never once mentions homosexuality. You say you follow the beatitudes. Which one again tells you that homosexuality is a sin? I don't seem to remember them all.

Paul was one of the greatest disciples. You think he just made stuff up as he went along? I have pointed out in the Bible to you where it says that homosexuality is a sin. I can do no more than show you God's word. You either accept it or you don't.

You act like I make statements like "I hate fags! or "All queers go to hell!" or something. That is not how I feel at all. I have explained it over and over again.

Just because someone commits a sin, that does not make them the scum of the earth. I just find it so strange that I have no problem with friends of mine that are lesbians with the way I believe and I have such problems just discussing it with those that are not homosexual. If they can understand my position and accept it, why can't you? I am not saying I am right. I am not saying you are right. I am merely saying that this is what I believe and why.

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The sin of Adam and Eve to us seems incredibly small, but had huge consequences. Their rebellion represented their rejection of God's right to set standards for humans.

In our present state, we sin unintentionally; we can't get complete control over it no matter what we do. So what makes one sin greater than another? It is deliberate sin.

Jesus spoke of blasphemy against the spirit. Compare that with what Paul said in the book of Hebrews 10:26: "For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left. . ."

That is why David could be forgiven for his sin with Bathsheba, while Ananias was struck down simply for lying. (Acts 5: 1-5)

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Momma Angel wrote:

Wait just a minute. You just totally contradicted yourself here.

Mesquite Wrote:

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Unfortunately all too often human beings are repulsed by and ridicule those different than themselves.

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MA, it is not right...for most of us. Most of us have an attraction to the opposite sex and a natural repulsion to the same sex. Nothing unusual there.

So, which is it, Mesquite? We have a natural repulsion to it or we are repulsed by and ridicule those different?

What is your problem here. There is nothing contradictory in those statements. Heterosexuals have a natural repulsion to homosexuality. You do not understand that? The natural repulsion is what makes them heterosexual. Homosexuals have been looked down upon and ridiculed and mistreated throughout history. It is only through recent enlightenment that it has become somewhat acceptable. Your Bible was only recording a primitive cultures view of homosexuality. Same as with slavery, low respect for women, and brutality in war. Do you need references?

Momma Angel wrote:

Mesquite Wrote:

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When you cannot argue the message attack the messenger. The link referenced many quotes from Jesus and also went into the quotes you referenced below. IMO a Christian that believed in the teachings of Jesus would have no trouble rationalizing away the anti homosexual passages just as they rationalize away the other abominable portions of the Bible. On the other hand if the want reinforcement of their prejudices they will find it in the Bible also.

Sorry, but I think the rationalizing being done is trying to make it appear as if Jesus condones homosexuality. We will just have to agree to disagree on this issue I guess.

Do you have any evidence that Jesus did not condone it? Sure cut and run, just like you avoided Dys's question "what did Jesus say about homosexuals".

Momma Angel wrote:

Mesquite Wrote:

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Here we go with the picking and choosing again. The bible has a whole lot of trash talking attributed to God. Do you need for me to refresh your memory on some of it? Some men and women are infertile and cannot go forth and multiply. Gee do you think God did that on purpose just to cause them grief?

We are talking about a specific topic here; homosexuality. We are not talking about infertile people.

I mentioned that some men and women were born infertile solely because of this statement by you.

" How do you account for the numerous times in the Bible it says, be fruitful and multiply? Same sex partners cannot multiply. "

Well, neither can infertile couples multiply. So what? Are they abominable too?

Momma Angel wrote:

Mesquite Wrote:

Quote:
100% certainty? I don't think you can say with .01% certainty, but as a heterosexual I can state with absolute certainty that I could not choose to be homosexual. As for an accounting of the verses, I will give you an accounting for them just as soon as you tell me how you account for the God directed slaughter and rape of children in Numbers 31:

Again, we are talking about homosexuality and you are introducing something else into the topic.

At this point you were asking me how I accounted for the verses you quoted and I was demonstrating that there is no accounting for some of the words attributed to God in the bible. Care to comment on the 'certainty" portion of that quote?

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mesquite wrote:

Momma Angel wrote:
Wait just a minute. You just totally contradicted yourself here.

Mesquite Wrote:

Quote:
Unfortunately all too often human beings are repulsed by and ridicule those different than themselves.

Here it sounds as if you are saying that because we are repulsed by something we ridicule others. It sounds like the repulsion is a choice here. And why do you keep saying these things to me. I do not ridicule anyone for being homosexual. I don't ridicule anyone for being anything that they are.

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MA, it is not right...for most of us. Most of us have an attraction to the opposite sex and a natural repulsion to the same sex. Nothing unusual there.

And here it sounds like the repulsion is natural. That's where I see a contradiction.

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So, which is it, Mesquite? We have a natural repulsion to it or we are repulsed by and ridicule those different?

What is your problem here. There is nothing contradictory in those statements. Heterosexuals have a natural repulsion to homosexuality. You do not understand that? The natural repulsion is what makes them heterosexual. Homosexuals have been looked down upon and ridiculed and mistreated throughout history. It is only through recent enlightenment that it has become somewhat acceptable. Your Bible was only recording a primitive cultures view of homosexuality. Same as with slavery, low respect for women, and brutality in war. Do you need references?

Again, I DO NOT RIDICULE HOMOSEXUALS! Just because I don't agree with you or them that it is acceptable does not mean I ridicule them.

Momma Angel wrote:
Mesquite Wrote:

Quote:
When you cannot argue the message attack the messenger. The link referenced many quotes from Jesus and also went into the quotes you referenced below. IMO a Christian that believed in the teachings of Jesus would have no trouble rationalizing away the anti homosexual passages just as they rationalize away the other abominable portions of the Bible. On the other hand if the want reinforcement of their prejudices they will find it in the Bible also.

Sorry, but I think the rationalizing being done is trying to make it appear as if Jesus condones homosexuality. We will just have to agree to disagree on this issue I guess

Yes, and I don't agree with the interpretations posed. So what? Do I have to agree? Do you have to agree? No. So what? We disagree. I think it's a pretty fair statement to say that anyone can interpret anything in the Bible to justify what they want. I have said that before.
.

Do you have any evidence that Jesus did not condone it? Sure cut and run, just like you avoided Dys's question "what did Jesus say about homosexuals".

You know very well it does not say, Jesus said, "homosexuality is wrong." I am not stupid, Mesquite. And neither are you. I have showed you where in the Bible I believe it shows that homosexuality is a sin. If you don't accept it that way, then you don't accept it that way. You keep asking me the same questions and I'm only going to give you the same answers.

Momma Angel wrote:
Mesquite Wrote:

Quote:
Here we go with the picking and choosing again. The bible has a whole lot of trash talking attributed to God. Do you need for me to refresh your memory on some of it? Some men and women are infertile and cannot go forth and multiply. Gee do you think God did that on purpose just to cause them grief?

We are talking about a specific topic here; homosexuality. We are not talking about infertile people.

I mentioned that some men and women were born infertile solely because of this statement by you.

" How do you account for the numerous times in the Bible it says, be fruitful and multiply? Same sex partners cannot multiply. "

Well, either can infertile couples multiply. So what? Are they abominable too?

Excuse me, Mesquite, but I pointed that out in relation to the topic.

Momma Angel wrote:
Mesquite Wrote:

Quote:
100% certainty? I don't think you can say with .01% certainty, but as a heterosexual I can state with absolute certainty that I could not choose to be homosexual. As for an accounting of the verses, I will give you an accounting for them just as soon as you tell me how you account for the God directed slaughter and rape of children in Numbers 31:

Again, we are talking about homosexuality and you are introducing something else into the topic.

At this point you were asking me how I accounted for the verses you quoted and I was demonstrating that there is no accounting for some of the words attributed to God in the bible. Care to comment on the 'certainty" portion of that quote?

Does it matter what percent of certainty I have about it or not? If I am right, I'm right. If I'm wrong, I am wrong. I tell you what I think, feel, and believe and why. That's all I am doing.

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Of all the crocks of sh!t spewed up by religionists, intelligent design is the biggest crock of sh!t of the lot.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Parados Wrote:

Quote:
The words of Christ are quite different from the words of Paul. Christ never once mentions homosexuality. You say you follow the beatitudes. Which one again tells you that homosexuality is a sin? I don't seem to remember them all.

Paul was one of the greatest disciples. You think he just made stuff up as he went along?

Yes, exactly, 100% hit it on the head!!!! He made it up as he went along. The man was on a mission to create a new religion. This is a man who zealously persecuted the early believers and the zealously persecuted those who didn't believe. The guy was an egomaniac in all his endeavors and changed Christianity from the religion of Jesus to the religion about Jesus.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Paul was one of the greatest disciples. You think he just made stuff up as he went along? I have pointed out in the Bible to you where it says that homosexuality is a sin. I can do no more than show you God's word. You either accept it or you don't.

I've decided not to take part in arguments anymore. It just gets me so angry. However, I will now venture in to correct you.

Paul was not one of Jesus' disciples. He hardly knew Jesus. The only time he saw Jesus was when he was riding a donkey to Damascus and fell off it. Of course, he claimed he saw Jesus in the Heavens before he fell off his donkey, but really...

I mean, before his little Damascus event he persecuted Christians.

Frankly, of all the things stated in the Bible, I find Paul's words the least trustworthy. In fact, there are those who hold the critical view that Paul usurped the authority of Jesus' remaining disciples.

Still, you can't really call Paul a disciple in the sense that he was there from the very beginning.

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Now I see Momma. You follow the words in the bible until and unless they disagree with you. Then you make excuses. The bible in Romans pretty clearly puts homosexuality on the same level with

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every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless

(We will ignore the context that homosexuality is claimed to be a punishment for godlessness.) According to the word of God homosexuality is the SAME as disobeying your parents. But you seem to think it is quite alright to put the sins in some order that fits your personal prejudice.

What makes no sense is why you think one sin not being against the law would confuse children but you don't have a problem with other sins. Shouldn't we outlaw arrogance? Doesn't that confuse children?

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parados, quoting the bible wrote:

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every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless
(We will ignore the context that homosexuality is claimed to be a punishment for godlessness.) According to the word of God homosexuality is the SAME as disobeying your parents.

According to the passage you quote, it is also the same as murder. That would seem to weaken your claim that the new testament considers homosexuality a minor transgression. By contrast, it reinforces Momma Angel's claim that sin is not a matter of degree from the bible's perspective.

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I am fond of Momma, and I hesitated to share an opposing opinion, because so many others are doing that--but, I'm sure she will accept my opinion as gracefully as she has others'.

I believe that Jesus expects us to love homosexuals (though not with our bodies--heh)--and be as kind to them as we are supposed to be to everyone else.

I think "people" have made a big deal out of certain "sins", while engaging blissfully in others.

You and I agree that all sins are of the same weight--yet it is easy to get trapped into separating some sins out as worse--especially if they are the ones we aren't guilty of.

I think we do a great disservice to our religion (not to mention Christ), our gay peeps and our own integrity, to allow ourselves to do this.

I can't tell you how disturbing it is for me to look up and see that....parados.....said nearly the same thing.

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Wilso wrote:

Of all the crocks of sh!t spewed up by religionists, intelligent design is the biggest crock of sh!t of the lot.

Once again, a well researched and intellectually stimulating post from down under.

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Thomas wrote:

parados, quoting the bible wrote:
Quote:
every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless
(We will ignore the context that homosexuality is claimed to be a punishment for godlessness.) According to the word of God homosexuality is the SAME as disobeying your parents.

According to the passage you quote, it is also the same as murder. That would seem to weaken your claim that the new testament considers homosexuality a minor transgression. By contrast, it reinforces Momma Angel's claim that sin is not a matter of degree from the bible's perspective.

Actually some sins in the Bible are considered abominations and punishable by death in old testament.

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them. Lev. 20:13

But then again they stoned for things such as adultery and a bunch of other things too that we would not think of punishing by death today. So if you are justify making a law for one sin the bible, to be consistent we would have to make it against the law to have an affair and worship other images...

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No matter how hard you work at it, 'the wage sin pays is death.'

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My favorite example of god's loving character is the injunction in Leviticus to put to death unruly children . . . yeah, that Yaweh dude, he's a really love fest . . .

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How idiotic, Neo . . . the wage of breathing regularly is death. The wage of eight hours of sleep each night is death. The wage of a regular, healthy diet is death.

It is that bourn from which no man returns . . .

Knock off the silly exegesis, will ya?

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Setanta wrote:

How idiotic, Neo . . . the wage of breathing regularly is death. The wage of eight hours of sleep each night is death. The wage of a regular, healthy diet is death.

It is that bourn from which no man returns . . .

Knock off the silly exegesis, will ya?

Take the purge, Set. All I was trying to do was contribute to the question at hand, which I interpreted as 'what is the biblical view of sin?' (Admittedly off topic.)

Of course, if you don't believe the bible, the answer wouldn't make sense.

And, apparently, it doesn't make sense to many believers who are wont to use the bible as ambidexter justification for their own ends.

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Liberal Hypocrisy about Intelligent Design

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