CAPITAL PUNISHMENT

Interesting. But, exactly how does this tie in with the abortion issue?

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JamesMorrison wrote:

Lastly, many wring their hands and agonize over the innocent/guilty issue, you know-- is the condemned really guilty beyond a reasonable doubt? The reasoning to end all executions on this basis can easily, and often does, result in an analysis to paralysis situation that emotionally ties us in knots, and rightly so. The answer is simple: make sure the defendant is guilty. Sometimes this is easy, oft times it is not. It is here discretion should rule, so, should we let the jury decide the defendant's fate or an experienced jurist?

The answer is simple but impractical. We can't be sure. People will be executed for crimes they did not commit. Every time this happens the state fails to fulfill its primary responsibility.

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Intrepid asked:

Quote:

Interesting. But, exactly how does this tie in with the abortion issue?

What?

JM

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echi wrote:

Why are so many concerned with dollar amounts? Are we so materialistic that we list that first among our priorities, even when considering whether or not someone should be killed?

I was just replying to the poster who said we shouldn't waste money on feeding and housing murderers. I agree with you, it's not a dollars-and-cents issue.

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A person in prison should not live better than the worst person who is free

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ralpheb wrote:

A person in prison should not live better than the worst person who is free

I see your point. But "free" people supposedly have the power to affect their living standards. Prisoners rely on others to do that. It should be the responsibility of the state to ensure that the living conditions of their prisoners are at least humane.

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echi wrote:

ralpheb wrote:
A person in prison should not live better than the worst person who is free

I see your point. But "free" people supposedly have the power to affect their living standards. Prisoners rely on others to do that. It should be the responsibility of the state to ensure that the living conditions of their prisoners are at least humane.

Yes, by all means let's make certain that murderers and rapists are comfortable.

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echi wrote:

CrazyDiamond wrote:
echi wrote:
If there is reason to believe that a violent offender is likely to remain violent if released, then don't. Keep the prisoner separate from the public. If he is convicted of murder, then unless his innocence is proven, keep him in for the rest of his natural life. If the problem is the release of violent offenders due to prison overcrowding, then we should address that problem directly, and not try to compensate by killing people.

You have no way whatsoever of determining whether someone is just being non-violent for a short period of time, to get out, or if they really have changed they're ways. And, like I said, that's where the problem arises.

Are you suggesting that all violent offenders be executed in order to deal with the problem of prison overcrowding?

When did I mention execution in that statement? I'm just saying keep them locked up.

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I thought the point of incarcertation was for punishment for crimes? As far as I am concerned, those convicted of crimes and imprisoned have lost their rights.

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CrazyDiamond wrote:

echi wrote:
CrazyDiamond wrote:

You have no way whatsoever of determining whether someone is just being non-violent for a short period of time, to get out, or if they really have changed they're ways. And, like I said, that's where the problem arises.

Are you suggesting that all violent offenders be executed in order to deal with the problem of prison overcrowding?

When did I mention execution in that statement? I'm just saying keep them locked up.

Right. Okay, then we agree on that, I think.

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Questioner wrote:

echi wrote:
ralpheb wrote:
A person in prison should not live better than the worst person who is free

I see your point. But "free" people supposedly have the power to affect their living standards. Prisoners rely on others to do that. It should be the responsibility of the state to ensure that the living conditions of their prisoners are at least humane.

Yes, by all means let's make certain that murderers and rapists are comfortable.

I don't think the government has a responsibility to make prisoners feel comfortable. I was responding to ralpheb's post, which would have every prisoner starving and freezing to death.

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When a person breaks the rules of society and they are sent to prison, they give up their rights and their freedoms.
And just so we are clear, I am not talking about the silly infractions of parking tickets and sppeding. I'm talking about any rule that would get them sent to prison.
People who commit crimes and are sent to prison will NEVER get sympothy from me.

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ralpheb

It has nothing to do with sympathy, but with human rights and (in my view) morality. None of us is equipped with the ability judge someone's worth.

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echi wrote:

CrazyDiamond wrote:
echi wrote:
CrazyDiamond wrote:

You have no way whatsoever of determining whether someone is just being non-violent for a short period of time, to get out, or if they really have changed they're ways. And, like I said, that's where the problem arises.

Are you suggesting that all violent offenders be executed in order to deal with the problem of prison overcrowding?

When did I mention execution in that statement? I'm just saying keep them locked up.

Right. Okay, then we agree on that, I think.

Indeed we do, my friend. Very Happy

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ralpheb wrote:

When a person breaks the rules of society and they are sent to prison, they give up their rights and their freedoms.
And just so we are clear, I am not talking about the silly infractions of parking tickets and sppeding. I'm talking about any rule that would get them sent to prison.
People who commit crimes and are sent to prison will NEVER get sympothy from me.

You haven't met too many criminals then. Some indeed do deserve not so much sympathy as help. Yes they deserve to serve the sentence they are given but they don't deserve utter condemnation. Well most of them anyway. True there are some realy evil bastards around but those are the ones I categorise as being unable to be rehabilitated and all we can do is keep them out of society for a fixed period (or in the case of murder, for the rest of their natural lives).

Let me give you an example. I was partially responsible for getting a heroin addict a long sentence for armed robbery. He was one screwed-up individual but not evil. Inside he received medical treatment and got off H and proved to be a model prisoner. He was released early on parole (no objection from me - not that they asked) and set up a rehab programme for heroin addicts. Last I heard he was doing very well.

On the other hand I dealt with a fellow many years ago as a juvenile (he was the juvenile, not me) and I just knew that he would be a long term client of the criminal justice system. I suspected him of being a sociopath (yes, armchair shrink). While I was doing some research I read a case a few months ago where he was imprisoned yet again for an armed robbery. He is hopeless. Despite being given help and chances he simply slides back into serious crime. He is a violent, vicious thug and as far as I'm concerned is not able to be rehabilitated. I first came across him when he was fourteen - he is now in his thirties. He is back in prison now for about ten years. They may as well leave him there. We don't need him outside.

My point is that we can't lump all criminals in together.

And on the issue of rights. The most important right they give up is the right to freedom. I don't care if prisons give them feather beds if it helps their behaviour and makes them easier to manage.

If you think prisons are easy places to live I suggest you find one and take a tour. The control over the prisoners - totally justified - is incredible. They virtually get told when to take a pee. But as I say, I don't have a problem with that. The amenities are just tools for good management - they're not luxuries.

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Totally and completely agree with you, goodfielder. The complaints about coddling of prisoners and the outrage towards anyone who breaks the law usually come from people who have never known or dealt with lawbreakers. The people doing time in our jails and prisons are just as varied a group as those walking the streets and sitting next to you at the cafe or pub. Many just made one tragic mistake, due to particular circumstances at the time, and are quite rehabilitatable (is that even a word? Smile

)

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I'm a corrections officer for a state prison. Next

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Merry Andrew,

I do realize that not all criminals are the same. Not all anyone of anything is the same. I believe that Karla Faye Tucker was a rehabilitated criminal when she was given the lethal injection.

Do I think she should have had her sentence commuted to life? In this case, yes. I think that if someone proves themselves during their time on death row like she did (and many others have) then they deserve some leniency.

But those on death row that never show remorse, do a thing to better themselves, etc., I don't feel they should get leniency.

I don't like that I think the death penalty is a necessity. I wish it wasn't.

I think, like in so many things in life, we have to consider the complete picture when we are talking about a criminal.

ralpheb, that has got to be one of the toughest jobs in the world. I admire anyone that could do this and stay sane.

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actually I'm not, but it proves a point that people who do work in the prison system have a much better understanding of the people we send to prison.
I have two nephews who are "visitors" to prisons and I have 4 very good friends that are CO's. They have seen more scams by inmates than the rest of us can have nightmares about. All the inmates, including people like Charles Manson, have claimed that they are "reformed" and "rehabilitated." I, for one, do not believe any of that nonsense. Inmates will lie, cheat and steal if they think they can get out early.
I also have a son who has done time, and, while I was stationed in FL, I had inmates work for me who were all in prison for drug related charges: pos, intent to sell, smuggling, disrtibution, transport etc etc. So I do have first hand experience with prisonors, inmates, convicts and that still does not change my stance.

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I understand. Have you ever seen one time when a conversion was real in your opinion? I am very curious about this. Of course, like in cases with Karla Faye Tucker, we only had the press and a few people to witness this.

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CAPITAL PUNISHMENT

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