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A Factual Appraisal of the "Holocaust" by the Red Cross

 
 
freedom4free
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Nov, 2005 11:35 am
JustWonders wrote:
freedom4free wrote:
There are many people who do actually find these arguments convincing.


Are you one of them?


I personally believe that the Holocaust did happen and that the National Socialists committed atrocities against communists and other forces of democracy, and my own view isn't going to change unless Holocaust revisionists provide compelling arguments; so far, however, they have not, except on a couple of somewhat extraneous details.)
Whilst it may be true that the "mainstreamisation" of Holocaust revisionism can strengthen Nazism, it would also have the quite positive effect of weakening much of Israel's prestige, which to significant extent has its roots in the cult of Holocaust victimology. Communal victimhood is the very cornerstone of modern Israeli identity. Discredit the Holocaust, discredit the myth of perpetual Jewish victimhood,--thereby discredit the legitimacy of Zionism and Israel to many people. (Another bit of information that could change accepted wisdom on that head, would be Israel's intimate collaboration with the Nazis and their supporting of them while they were in power.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Nov, 2005 11:49 am
freedom4free wrote:
Another bit of information that could change accepted wisdom on that head, would be Israel's intimate collaboration with the Nazis and their supporting of them while they were in power.

That certainly would stand a good deal of wisdom on its head, considering that the state of Israel didn't exist until 1948, three years after the Nazi regime fell from power.
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parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Nov, 2005 11:50 am
joefromchicago wrote:
freedom4free wrote:
Another bit of information that could change accepted wisdom on that head, would be Israel's intimate collaboration with the Nazis and their supporting of them while they were in power.

That certainly would stand a good deal of wisdom on its head, considering that the state of Israel didn't exist until 1948, three years after the Nazi regime fell from power.


I was wondering that myself Joe but then I remembered that Israel has perfected time travel.
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freedom4free
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Nov, 2005 11:58 am
You need to read this book : 51 Documents: Zionist Collaboration With the Nazis :wink:
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joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Nov, 2005 12:01 pm
freedom4free wrote:
You need to read this book : 51 Documents: Zionist Collaboration With the Nazis :wink:

On the contrary, I suspect that no one needs to read that book.
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freedom4free
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Nov, 2005 12:14 pm
joefromchicago wrote:
freedom4free wrote:
You need to read this book : 51 Documents: Zionist Collaboration With the Nazis :wink:

On the contrary, I suspect that no one needs to read that book.


Exactly, presumably if the deniers are openly debated and refuted, a number of people who were will become aware of this and it will make them less susceptible to future arguments of deniers.

The effects of the Holocaust are not limited to Germany. Through Zionism the cult of Holocaust victimology has contributed to the persecution and plunder of the Palestinians, not to mention a Holocaust Industry which has been propped up for the purposes of promoting Jewish racial supremacy, political advantage and financial gain, as Finkelstein (a Jew) argues in his book The Holocaust Industry. Discrediting the myth of perpetual Jewish victimhood, in Germany just as much as anywhere else, can have an important and desirable effect in this connexion; Israel and Zionism, as said, owing much of their prestige to the superannuated victim status of the Jewish people.
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Fedral
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Nov, 2005 12:38 pm
This is what happens as time passes and fewer of the people who were actually there for these events are alive.

My father was a 27 year veteran Cavalryman in the New Jersey National Guard. (Tanks, not horses Very Happy )

His unit had history going back over 100 years and many of the men who had served over the years still socialized and passed on their experiences to the new men of the unit.

I was raised among men who had fought in WW II, Korea and Vietnam. (The unit was activated for WW II and served with distinction and many many of the men in this unit volunteered for Korea and Vietnam service.)

Hanging around men like this granted me 4 great gifts:

1) An absolute respect for the generations before me.

2) A great love for the country that produced men such as them.

3) An absolute hatred for war.

4) The knowledge that "It was part of the citizens duty to stand between the barbarians and the gates of Rome" even if you abhorred war.


I listened to these men as they recounted battles with the Germans in the hedgerows of France (The Cullen Plow that broke the hedgerow country was invented by a man from my fathers Regiment).

They told me what it was like being the first Americans into Paris. How they battled across France and into Germany.

They also told me about the Camps.

I saw men who I respected more than anyone... battle hardened men who's voices choked with emotion as they spoke of events 35 years in their past. They spoke of the bodies, of the liberated prisoners and of the unspeakable horror which man can afflict upon man.

Now, this is now second hand information since most of those men have since passed on, but I remember and I will NEVER forget the looks on their faces as they spoke of these things.

These were men who had no reason to lie, were not trying to impress or horrify a young man... they just wanted to be sure that what they saw wouldn't be forgotten.

To deny that these things happened is to call those men liars.

I know in my heart that they were not. This is why men like this asshole make me LIVID.


Yet, as hard as it is for me to say, he has every right to regurgitate his bile for any who wish to feast upon the lies he vomits forth.
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freedom4free
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Nov, 2005 12:53 pm
Presumably, most of these people have seen the same evidence demonstrating the existence of the holocaust as everyone else had. Holocaust denial literature is generally dedicated to disputing various points of this mainstream evidence, not necessaraly completely dening it.
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Fedral
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Nov, 2005 01:37 pm
freedom4free wrote:
Presumably, most of these people have seen the same evidence demonstrating the existence of the holocaust as everyone else had. Holocaust denial literature is generally dedicated to disputing various points of this mainstream evidence, not necessaraly completely dening it.


I don't know if this was directed at my post, but I will answer it....

The men I spoke to were not people who had seen evidence long after the liberation of the Camps, they weren't men who had read reports of other men.

The men I spoke to and listened to were the men who kicked the gates in of these places. They were the first men on the scene and saw these places first hand and 'unsanitized'.

These were the men who helped bury the thousands upon thousands of corpses, that cared for the victims of the Camps, the men who saw the monumental obscenity of what happened there with their own eyes and past on that vision to the next generation.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Nov, 2005 01:49 pm
freedom4free wrote:
Presumably, most of these people have seen the same evidence demonstrating the existence of the holocaust as everyone else had. Holocaust denial literature is generally dedicated to disputing various points of this mainstream evidence, not necessaraly completely dening it.


You really might have some good ideas, but about this topic you are deadly wrong.

And opposite to Fedral, I know and spoke to people who had been inside the camps - not just the men who kicked the gates in of these places, but prisonesr, who survived and some other, who had been there 'visiting'.
0 Replies
 
Acquiunk
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Nov, 2005 02:09 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
freedom4free wrote:
Presumably, most of these people have seen the same evidence demonstrating the existence of the holocaust as everyone else had. Holocaust denial literature is generally dedicated to disputing various points of this mainstream evidence, not necessaraly completely dening it.


You really might have some good ideas, but about this topic you are deadly wrong.
The Holocaust was the product of four relatively simple steps:
1) A group of ideologues defined a group as non human
2) these ideologues seized the powers of the state
3) they used the powers of the state to hunt down every member of the defined group and killed them.
4) a majority of the non targeted population through either fear, unconcern or agreement did not protest.

Making this a subject for debate, quibbling over details, ignores the enormity both of the process and the event.
0 Replies
 
freedom4free
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Nov, 2005 02:26 pm
All of you are probably right, but here is something to think about...

The political consequences of the Holocaust were, and are, enormous. Let us look at the most important ones.

The founding of the State of Israel and the violation of Palestinian Rights

Without the Holocaust, the world would never have permitted the founding of the state of Israel in 1948. The colonial era was coming to an end at that time. The British had already decided to give India its independence, while dozens of Asian and African territories were at that point striving to shake off European rule. While other powers were rushing to grant independence to their colonies, the Jews in Palestine were permitted to embark upon a colonial adventure par excellence, with the blessings of both the West and the USSR. In so doing, they proceeded with ruthless brutality; whole Arab villages were leveled. A great proportion of the Palestinians were driven from their homeland. In 1967, Israel conquered additional Arab territories, the inhabitants of which remain subject to all possible kinds of repression: deportations, arrests -- in 1992, there were 15,000 Palestinians behind bars for political reasons! (1) -- liquidation of political opposition by killer commandos, dynamiting of houses, confiscations, endless repression (2). In addition, there is the systematic use of torture, quite unashamedly declared legal by the Israeli Supreme Court on 15 November 1996. In so doing, the Jewish state adopted a legal position which remains unique in the world. Israel is, of course, not the only state in the world to practise torture; but it is the only nation which openly claims the right to do so. The right of Israeli military personnel and policemen to torture Palestinian political detainees was justified by the Supreme Court on security considerations: the need to gain "vitally important information on planned attacks". So why did the Gestapo officer Klaus Barbie in Paris have French resistance fighters tortured, if not on security grounds, and for the purpose of gaining vital information on planned attacks on German soldiers?

Not only may Arabs be tortured and murdered in Israel with impunity -- they may even be mocked posthumously. In 1993, two Israeli soldiers shot an unarmed Palestinian during a street confrontation. At first, they were sentenced to one hour's imprisonment each; this inhumanly heavy sentence was later commuted into a fine of exactly one penny each (3).

Jewish terror rule in Palestine is not actually encouraged by world public opinion, but it is tolerated. After all, the Jewish people, after suffering the Holocaust, needed a homeland to protect them from a new genocide; what are the sufferings of the Palestinians compared to those of the Jews under Hitler?

Without outside assistance, the state of Israel would never survive for as much a single day. Its chief source of revenue continues to consist of financial injections from the Americans, support from international Jewry, and German "reparations". According to official sources, the BRD had already paid 85.4 billion marks to Israel (and Jewish organizations) by 1992 (3); the actual figure must be considerably higher. In addition there have been German deliveries in the form of commodities. Nahum Goldmann, long-time Chairman of the Jewish World Congress, wrote in his book The Jewish Paradox (4):

"Without the German reparations payments that started coming during its first ten years as a state, Israel would not have half of its present infrastructure: all the trains in Israel are German, the ships are German, and the same goes for electrical installations and a great deal of Israel's industry..."

Immunity of Jews from criticism

Before 1945, criticism of Jews was allowed. Today, that is no longer the case. Any criticism of Jewry and Zionism, no matter how faint-hearted -- for example, relating to the relatively heavy influence of Jews on the mass media of the Western world, or the arrogance of the Central Jewish Council in Germany -- is immediately shouted down with screams about Auschwitz and the Holocaust, with approximately the following logic: anyone who criticizes Jews is anti-Semitic; Hitler was anti-Semitic; Hitler killed Six million Jews; therefore, anyone who criticizes Jews wants to kill another Six Million Jews! No matter how stupid and primitive this argument may be, it has proven itself effective right down until the present day.

The effectiveness of the above is demonstrated by a single remarkable example:

The most dangerous criminal organization in the world is regularly called the "Russian mafia" by the mass media. This is a slander on the Russian people, because the mob bosses are not Russian. In a book which the author was forced to call The Russian Mafia -- if he had called it The Jewish Mafia he would have been thrown in jail -- the German author Juergen Roth (5) says:

"The cocaine is owned by a drug ring made up overwhelmingly of Israeli nationals -- some of them with Russian ancestry -- with support points in Colombia, Antwerp, Amsterdam, Tel Aviv, Moskow and St. Petersburg... Mosche Ben-Ari, Ricardo Fanchini, and Rachmiel Brandwain are considered the most powerful bosses of the exile Russian mafia in Europe and the USA."

Although Roth had to censor many names in his book, it is clear from the context that the bosses of the "Russian Mafia" are almost exclusively Jewish. The gangster bosses Rachmiel Brandwain and Mosche Ben-Ari live in Antwerp or Munich. No Belgian or German state prosecutor would ever dare have them arrested, since he would be attacked by the media as a "neo-Nazi", a pitiless persecutor of "Holocaust survivors".

Covering up Allied atrocities in WW II

As we have seen, very little is ever said about the horrendous Allied atrocities during WWII. Terror bombings, starvation camps, and expulsions, may, of course, be inhumane, people will say; but the Holocaust was an incomparably greater crime! Anyone guilty of such a crime -- i.e., the Germans -- has no right to complain of harsh treatment by the Allied victors.

Creating contempt for the German people

Since 1945, the German people have been branded with a mark of shame for an unspeakable crime which makes healthy self-respect impossible for Germans, and prevents any German government from representing German interests in any way. A truly independent German government committed to defending the interests of the German people has not existed since 1945. The DDR was ruled by the satraps of the Eastern occupying powers for decades, while the BRD continues to be ruled by vassals of the Western occupying powers.

Self-respect and patriotism are held in contempt in Germany today; self-criticism and self-hatred are the prevailing trend. Leading intellectuals, the most well-known of whom is Guenter Grass, have expressly opposed the reunification with reference to Auschwitz (6).

Germany's entry into the Europe of Maastricht, i.e., into a supranational government ruled by an anonymous bureaucracy, is advocated tooth and nail by all the parties represented in the German Bundestag. After the destruction of Germany as a state, the next objective of the ruling classes is the destruction of the German people itself. This is to be achieved through artificially lowering the domestic birth rate by means of laws hostile to the family, by facilitating abortion, as well as by encouraging the mass immigration of people from foreign cultures, most recently from Black Africa.

Rendering impossible any objective discussion of National Socialism

An objective discussion of National Socialism, with its strengths and weaknesses, is simply impossible today. Any mention of the achievements and positive aspects of the National Socialist system -- for example, the elimination of unemployment and the economic upswing which set in soon after Hitler's rise to power -- is immediately howled down with screams about Auschwitz.

Creating contempt for all forms of nationalism except Jewish nationalism

While the Auschwitz truncheon was first used only on the Germans, it is now directed, to an increasingly greater extent, against all other white nationalities. The argument in this regard runs approximately as follows:

- the world sat by and did nothing while Hitler slaughtered the Jews by millions. Neither the Western powers nor the Soviets nor the International Red Cross nor the Vatican denounced the genocide nor attempted to rescue the Jews, although they knew just what the Nazis were doing. Therefore, the white race as a whole is jointly guilty for the Holocaust;

- since the extermination of the Jews was permitted without resistance AT THAT TIME, we must repent for our sins and grant residence to all asylum seekers from foreign cultures TODAY. If we were to send them back to their own countries, they might suffer persecution, torture, and death; we would therefore be guilty again!

- all forms of nationalism (except, of course, Jewish nationalism) is therefore highly dangerous, since it all too easily leads to racism, and therefore involves the danger of a new Holocaust. A "nationalist", of course, is anyone who resists the mass immigration of coloureds and Moslems to Europe and North America.

In practice, the Holocaust means that white Christian nations no longer have the right to their own identity. They have a moral duty to allow themselves to be overrun and displaced. "What, you're not against immigration, are you? You must be a NAZI!"

truthseeker
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Nov, 2005 02:47 pm
The author of the above pamphlet, Jürgen Graf and his publisher, Gerhard Förster, a former officer in Hitler's army, were convicted of breaking Switzerland's law against racial discrimination in 1998.
(Graf, 47, was sentenced to 15 months in prison and Foerster, 78, received one year. They were each fined $5,500, and were required to hand over the proceeds from Graf's books, which totaled $38,000.)

After that, Jürgen Graf has sought refuge in Iran, to which he fled rather than face the 15-month jail term. According to the Institute for Historical Review, Graf is presently living in Tehran "as a guest of Iranian scholars." Since his arrival in Iran, Graf has authored an online book entitled Holocaust Revisionism and its Political Consequences.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Nov, 2005 03:09 pm
AliceInWonderland wrote:
with 12 - 14 million dead in Nazi death camps... some bizarre need to believe it's all a myth.


are you quite sure it wasnt 12 to 14 thousand million?
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