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Sat 19 Nov, 2005 09:41 am
Define victory in Iraq.
If we can't leave until the job is done, define the job being done.
Cycloptichorn
45% of the Iraqi people believe that the bombings of Americans is justified. Victory in Iraq would be defined as winning over the hearts and minds of the Iraqis and having the vast majority support us in our efforts to stablilize the situation. That will never happen. Staying there only makes things worse and creates more insurgent and more terrorists.
Quote:According to military commanders, when they are done here Iraq will not be free of terror, nor roadside bombs, nor violent militias. It may have an elected government -- not without a great deal of strife and dissension -- but there is no guarantee it would be a truly responsive or even a terribly democratic one.
The U.S. military does not expect to defeat the insurgency but will consider its job done when Iraq's fledgling security forces are able to handle the threats they face.
This is not an after-the-fact deflation of the definition of victory to speed an exit from Iraq. It is a hard-won, realistic assessment of what is achievable.
The Washington Times
Personally i think the failure they are trying to prevent is their own.
For them Victory is getting re-elected.
Good question - but don't expect a reasoned answer from the right; in their minds, we're winning now.
When Iraq has an elected govt, a ratified constitution, a parliament, and a stable, trained, equipped military capable of defending the country and it's citizens against the tyranny of muslim extremists as well as a stable infrastructure and programs to ensure the freedom and safety of all Iraqi's.
I think that we achieved partial victory when we investigated to the point of achieving some confidence that there were no WMD or programs in Iraq. Now we don't have to wonder and worry. I think that we achieved a bit more when we arrested Saddam for the Iraqis to try. I can define the remaining requirement for victory by using almost all of what McGentrix said:
McGentrix wrote:When Iraq has an elected govt, a ratified constitution, a parliament, and a stable, trained, equipped military capable of defending the country and it's citizens against the tyranny of muslim extremists.
McGentrix wrote:When Iraq has an elected govt, a ratified constitution, a parliament, and a stable, trained, equipped military capable of defending the country and it's citizens against the tyranny of muslim extremists as well as a stable infrastructure and programs to ensure the freedom and safety of all Iraqi's.
I was wondering... if the elected government consisted of muslim extremists, or the ratified constitution furthered muslim extremism - that wouldn't constitute a victory, then?
I don't the right actually think we are succeeding in Iraq now, they just have too much invested with all the debates that have been going on these last few years to admit failure. (least that's the only explanation I can come up with to explain such blindness)
old europe wrote:McGentrix wrote:When Iraq has an elected govt, a ratified constitution, a parliament, and a stable, trained, equipped military capable of defending the country and it's citizens against the tyranny of muslim extremists as well as a stable infrastructure and programs to ensure the freedom and safety of all Iraqi's.
I was wondering... if the elected government consisted of muslim extremists, or the ratified constitution furthered muslim extremism - that wouldn't constitute a victory, then?
If a meteor were to slam into Baghdad, vaporizing everything within a 1000 mile radius, I wouldn't constitute that as a victory either. I have confidence in the Iraqi people to know better than to elect Muslim extremists or allow their constitution, which has already been written and voted for, to be used to further the goals of the extremists.
McGentrix wrote:old europe wrote:McGentrix wrote:When Iraq has an elected govt, a ratified constitution, a parliament, and a stable, trained, equipped military capable of defending the country and it's citizens against the tyranny of muslim extremists as well as a stable infrastructure and programs to ensure the freedom and safety of all Iraqi's.
I was wondering... if the elected government consisted of muslim extremists, or the ratified constitution furthered muslim extremism - that wouldn't constitute a victory, then?
If a meteor were to slam into Baghdad, vaporizing everything within a 1000 mile radius, I wouldn't constitute that as a victory either. I have confidence in the Iraqi people to know better than to elect Muslim extremists or allow their constitution, which has already been written and voted for, to be used to further the goals of the extremists.
I'll put that down as a "no", then.
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