And you chickhawks might benefit from reading some Rudyard Kipling. He's someone who didn't serve in the military, but "got it."
Rudyard Kipling in Epitaphs of the War wrote:If any question why we died,
Tell them, because our fathers lied.
BBB,
Here is a name you went out of your way to avoid,why is that?
FYI...
Secretary of Veterans Affairs Jim Nicholson
www.va.gov
"He is a 1961 graduate of the United States Military Academy at West Point, N.Y. He served eight years on active duty as a paratrooper and Ranger-qualified Army officer, then 22 years in the Army Reserve, retiring with the rank of colonel. While serving in Vietnam, he earned the Bronze Star Medal, Combat Infantryman Badge, the Meritorious Service Medal, Republic of Vietnam Cross of Gallantry and two Air Medals."
We have a civilian government and the military is subordinate to it. I expect that our politicians direct our military in terms of objectives while giving those with expertise the authority to conduct military operations. What makes Rep. Murtha's comments interesting is not that he is former military, but that he formerly strongly supported the war, but now feels he was misled. The President's statement that Congress had all the information he had is misleading. He is briefed daily and is presented with all the information from all the agencies with insight. Congress gets the sanitized version. That doesn't mean the President is wrong about going to war, but I feel that he is wrong in saying that everyone in Congress shared his level of insight into the situation. The President heard much more of the counter arguments to the "Iraq is training terrorists" and "Iraq is pursuing WMD" claims than Congress (and that is how it should be, he is the CIC).
I consider it the job of Congress to question the actions of our country and I expect a healthy debate on a war to occur before it starts, while it is ongoing and when it is over. I think the Republicans are wrong to not argue the points with Murtha and I think he is wrong to go to ad-homin attacks to respond.
I personally have come to the conclusion that the integence was selectively presented to make a case for war, that Iraq prior to the war presented no threat to the US and that an open-minded review of the intelligence at the time would have supported that conclusion. I think President Bush went "with his gut" and saw what he wanted in the intelligence, but I do not think he actively faked it. If there is some evidence that the administration did actively fake data or spun clearly unreliable data as truth, then that is unforgivable.
Well said, engineer.
IMO, however, the consequences of going to war are of such import that one might expect more deliberation than simpling going with one's gut.
Re: Sturgis
BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:Sturgis, the list is not mine; I only posted it.
You and anyone else is welcome to add the names and service status of anyone they wish that might not be on the list I found.
BBB
So you post a list that is inaccurate,and misleading,and you admit it?!?
Doesnt that hurt your credibility?
I find it interesting that Theodore Roosevelt, Jr., so eager to go to war that before accepting the post as Assistant Secretary of the Navy in the McKinley administration he secured a promise to be allowed to resign in the event of war and to be given a commission--i say i find it interesting that having served in Cuba, when he came to the office of the presidency, sedulously avoided becoming involved in any quarrel which might lead to war. He believed in a "foward policy" of projecting American hegemony and military power around the globe--but he had ceased to believe in military glory, and he practiced diplomacy with a view to avoiding war (which threatened more than once in his tenure, most notably the threat of war with England in 1905). He was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for brokering the negotiations which ended the Russo-Japanese War. I submit that men such as Grant, McKinley, Roosevelt, Eisenhower--men who have been to war to serve, are always reluctant to use war as an option when they are once in the position of commander in chief. Cf, Grant's comments on the Mexican War, McKinley's sincere and mighty efforts to avoid war with Spain (torpedoed by the great hypocrit, Joseph Pulitzer) and Eisenhower's refusal to back the play of the English and the French in 1956.
It is usually those who have a need to prove their manhood who go to war. They send others to die though never themselves donning the uniform to do their part.
mysteryman in full blown accusatory mode wrote:
Quote:BBB,
Here is a name you went out of your way to avoid,why is that?
FYI...
Secretary of Veterans Affairs Jim Nicholson
www.va.gov
and continuing in said mode wrote:
Quote:So you post a list that is inaccurate,and misleading,and you admit it?!?
Doesnt that hurt your credibility?
mysteryman – you’re making wild accusations based on your own assumptions. This is definitely in the “when did you stop beating your wife?” category.
It certainly hurts your credibility when you frame - yes I said "frame" - questions like that.
If only people understood how fantastically stupid they appear when they make comments like "They send others to die though never themselves donning the uniform to do their part."
goodfielder wrote:mysteryman in full blown accusatory mode wrote:
Quote:BBB,
Here is a name you went out of your way to avoid,why is that?
FYI...
Secretary of Veterans Affairs Jim Nicholson
www.va.gov
and continuing in said mode wrote:
Quote:So you post a list that is inaccurate,and misleading,and you admit it?!?
Doesnt that hurt your credibility?
mysteryman - you're making wild accusations based on your own assumptions. This is definitely in the "when did you stop beating your wife?" category.
It certainly hurts your credibility when you frame - yes I said "frame" - questions like that.
Did you see that name on the list?
Why wasnt it there?
Then BBB ADMITTED that it wasnt his list,that he just copied and pasted it.
Thats very sloppy research,isnt it?
This isn't the reference section, it's a political discussion board. If you find something interesting, then post it.
(And BBB is a "she;" do some research.)
mysteryman wrote:goodfielder wrote:mysteryman in full blown accusatory mode wrote:
Quote:BBB,
Here is a name you went out of your way to avoid,why is that?
FYI...
Secretary of Veterans Affairs Jim Nicholson
www.va.gov
and continuing in said mode wrote:
Quote:So you post a list that is inaccurate,and misleading,and you admit it?!?
Doesnt that hurt your credibility?
mysteryman – you’re making wild accusations based on your own assumptions. This is definitely in the “when did you stop beating your wife?” category.
It certainly hurts your credibility when you frame - yes I said "frame" - questions like that.
Did you see that name on the list?
Why wasnt it there?
Then BBB ADMITTED that it wasnt his list,that he just copied and pasted it.
Thats very sloppy research,isnt it?
Buggered if I know why it wasn't there mysteryman - but I might have asked before I made an assumption.
Nothing wrong with a copy and paste - this is an internet forum not a university.
Are you cranky because your side is losing or something?
Karl Roverer was never a problem solver just a shell game meister, good with mirrors and smoke and hiding problems under the carpet. That bulge under the carpet is becoming a mountain.
Talk
talk72000 wrote:Karl Roverer was never a problem solver just a shell game meister, good with mirrors and smoke and hiding problems under the carpet. That bulge under the carpet is becoming a mountain.
You just won the prize for the most mixed metaphors in one paragraph used on A2K: shell game, mirrors and smoke, carpet hiding, mountain bulges.
Congratulations!
BBB
talk72000 wrote:Karl Roverer was never a problem solver just a shell game meister, good with mirrors and smoke and hiding problems under the carpet. That bulge under the carpet is becoming a mountain.
uh... okay...um...uh...could you decipher some of that? If you have something to say just spit it out there is no reason to beat around the bush. Go ahead, lay your cards on the table.
Nazi Karl Roverer is adept in deception hence "shell game meister" like the carnival slight-of-hand artist with 3 shells and a ball as well as "mirrors and smoke" in magic shows. The Iraq Invasion is an ongoing sore with no solution in sight but with plenty of spin. The slow response in New Orleans shows lack of understanding and inability to foresee potential problems. The spin is the "carpet" hiding the two big problems. There is the also the mounting national debt of $8 trillion with which we could build a mountain. Wow, didn't realize I was in kindergarten again connecting the dots.
So it all boils down to Naziism... shame on you talk72000...
McGentrix wrote:So it all boils down to Naziism... shame on you talk72000...
We all know Rove really isn't a nazi. That's just exaggeration. I will be interested to see if he is indicted though. I also wonder how long the Democrats, if by some miracle they take over the house, take to impeach Bush. Now THAT would be fun.
The dems should really talk that issue up. I am sure that will be a great way for them to guarantee a Republican victory.
