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Scientists Confirm the Signs of God

 
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Nov, 2005 11:42 pm
Setanta wrote:
I see absolutely no reason to accede to special pleading for "faith." Politics are fair game because of the significance political events have for peoples lives. The wacko fringe of any religion is potentially dangerous, and even the garden variety parishoners believe they're right and everyone else is wrong, and want--at the least, secretly cherish the notion--to shove their "superior" belief down everyone else's throat.

As far as i'm concerned, i'll entertain no such special pleading. I may not call you a jackass, but i'm entitled to call your imaginary friend a jackass, and am very likely to do so.


This diminishes you, Set.

And how could you possibly know what notions anyone "secretly cherishes"?

Why can't you oppose the views of the religious without mockery? You have a very good mind - what is it you intend to achieve by insulting the religious?
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 12:42 am
Reasonable observations, snood, and logically put - in contrast to much of what is being held to ridicule here. Not so much is it the central tenet of anyone's belief, nor the believer, but rather the manner by which some of those professing certain beliefs present their case that comes in for criticism and mockery.

Powerful, well structured, academically valid, intellectually honest arguments may be made for the religionist proposition. No one on these boards ever has approached, let alone presented, any such argument. Rather, the claims and assertions of some of the more energetic religionists in these discussions, and the defenses thereof, merit and honestly earn the respect accorded them.

For the most part, its neither the belief nor the believer that is mocked, it is the pathetic b.s. that some believers mistake for logic, reason, scholarship, and argument that generates the derision. Deservedly so.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 01:53 am
Re: Scientists Confirm the Signs of God
Hanna121 wrote:

For Isaac Newton, a century and a half before Darwin, science was not separate from religion .....said:

This most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being. This Being governs all things, not as the soul of the world, but as Lord over all, and on account of His dominion. He is wont to be called Lord God, Universal Ruler.


The founder of physical astronomy, Johannes Kepler, stated his strong belief in God in one of his books where he wrote:

Since we astronomers are priests of the highest God in regard to the book of nature, it befits us to be thoughtful, not of the glory of our minds, but rather, above all else, of the glory of God.(Dan Graves, Scientists of Faith, . 51)


The great physicist, William Thompson (Lord Kelvin), who established thermodynamics on a formal scientific basis, was also a Christian who believed in God. He had strongly opposed Darwin's theory of evolution and totally rejected it. In 1903, short before his death, he made the unequivocal statement that, "With regard to the origin of life, science... positively affirms creative power." (David Darling, Deep Time, Delacorte Press, 1989, New York.)


Some other scientists who admit that the universe is created by a Creator and who are known by their cited attributes are:

Robert Boyle (the father of modern chemistry)
Iona William Petty (known for his studies on statistics and modern economy)
Michael Faraday (one of the greatest physicists of all times)
Gregory Mendel (the father of genetics; he invalidated Darwinism with his discoveries in the science of genetics)
Louis Pasteur (the greatest name in bacteriology; he declared war on Darwinism)
John Dalton (the father of atomic theory)
Blaise Pascal (one of the most important mathematicians)
John Ray (the most important name in British natural history)
Nicolaus Steno (a famous stratiographer who investigated earth layers)
Carolus Linnaeus (the father of biological classification)
Georges Cuvier (the founder of comparative anatomy)
Matthew Maury (the founder of oceanography)
Thomas Anderson (one the pioneers in the field of organic chemistry)


These so called scientists only believed that God created the world because they had never talked with any of the Wise Ones on A2K. They would have soon set these men of science on the straight path, I'm sure. Laughing
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goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 02:55 am
If they were still alive and if they had done their work in this Century instead of before the 20th Century - who knows?
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 05:52 am
Yeah, set; why must you ridicule the ridiculous. Are you some sort of god or something, to play with such pathetic assertions like that? How would you like it if I made fun of those sammiches over which you rhapsodize so freely? Please, lay down and let them cram it to you any way they like. It ain't so bad after the first one hundred years, so I hear tell.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 06:07 am
snood wrote:
This diminishes you, Set.


Can i then assume that you consider that those who mock the political beliefs of others are diminished? Do you, in fact, diminish yourself when you heap scorn, as i have read you to do, on those who support the current administration and its dirty little war in Iraq? Sauce for the goose constitutes sauce for the gander. When one's ideology of the polity is fair game, so is one's ideology of the spiritual. You are engaged in exactly that special pleading which i have rejected.

Quote:
And how could you possibly know what notions anyone "secretly cherishes"?


I cannot know until it is expressed. However, much of what we know in life is inferential--i infer the electrons in the wiring of this house, and with good reason, because i see the results. Those who assert a moral superiority with regard, for example, to the subject of homosexuality or abortion, and speak to the effect that "there oughta be a law," provide strong inferential evidence that they cherish a desire to impose their "morality" on others.

Quote:
Why can't you oppose the views of the religious without mockery? You have a very good mind - what is it you intend to achieve by insulting the religious?


I oppose the imposition of one's beliefs on others, and i mock contentions which are patently undemonstrable, but which are proposed for serious consideration by those who cannot necessarily be expected to hold the same belief. So, for example, i would inquire who among us is obliged by some special regard for peoples' superstitions to accept the notion of the racial inferiority of Africans because of the silly story of Noah's sons--a story which was a peculiar and racist creation of the Jews, not having formed a part of the Gilgamesh epic from which they ripped off the flood story wholesale. Those who hold politically ideological views opposed to mine frequently take offense at what i say, and claim to have been insulted, but i know of no one who is obliged to accept special pleading from them. When the ideology is spiritual, i see no reason to accede to special pleading with regard to the beliefs of others, and especially when the premises are patently absurd, and conclusions drawn from them lead to misogyny, racism, elitism--to a host of what reasonable people everywhere consider to be unacceptable attitudes and behavior.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 08:25 am
Setanta:

Quote:
Can i then assume that you consider that those who mock the political beliefs of others are diminished? Do you, in fact, diminish yourself when you heap scorn, as i have read you to do, on those who support the current administration and its dirty little war in Iraq? Sauce for the goose constitutes sauce for the gander. When one's ideology of the polity is fair game, so is one's ideology of the spiritual.


I've given this some honest consideration, and you may have an excellent point here. The only thing that prevents me from completely conceding the point is that I happen to consider a person's faith to be much more personal that his politics. I mean Setanta - You wouldn't lower yourself to ridiculing a person who loves a retarded uncle, because it is obviously to all that person's privilege to love whomever he pleases. Even if you considered the uncle to be totally unaware of the feelings heaped on him, and totally incapable of reciprocating same, and even if you personally considered it somewhat idiotic to spend time and energy giving that uncle attention, you would not make fun of the person for loving him because it would be cruel to do so. It may even be demonstrably illogical and unreasonable to use one's life in the service of that retared uncle, but I can't imagine you would deride that person for continuing to do so, because that would constitute an insult that would be clearly personal.

Quote:
You are engaged in exactly that special pleading which i have rejected.


Special pleading happens when someone tries to make an exception to a rule based on something illogical or irrelevant with respect to the "rule". I would agree that I am engaging in special pleading if I accepted that my belief in God doesn't qualify as something that can and should be considered equally as personal as the imperfect relative I mentioned above.


Quote:
I cannot know until it is expressed. However, much of what we know in life is inferential--i infer the electrons in the wiring of this house, and with good reason, because i see the results. Those who assert a moral superiority with regard, for example, to the subject of homosexuality or abortion, and speak to the effect that "there oughta be a law," provide strong inferential evidence that they cherish a desire to impose their "morality" on others.


Again, an excellent point, and one I find hard to oppose. I will only say that I share your disgust at the Jerry Falwells and Franklin Grahams and Osama bin Ladens of the world, but I think that their faith in God and mine have little in common both figuratively and in practice.



Quote:
I oppose the imposition of one's beliefs on others, and i mock contentions which are patently undemonstrable, but which are proposed for serious consideration by those who cannot necessarily be expected to hold the same belief. So, for example, i would inquire who among us is obliged by some special regard for peoples' superstitions to accept the notion of the racial inferiority of Africans because of the silly story of Noah's sons--a story which was a peculiar and racist creation of the Jews, not having formed a part of the Gilgamesh epic from which they ripped off the flood story wholesale.


The operative notion here is the whole idea of imposition of one's beliefs. I've said before, when I confine my observations to the exchanges which occur in A2K, the "believers" as often as not offer their beliefs from a defensive stance - afer having been put there by a salvo fired across their bow by some nonbeliever with an axe to grind. And there aren't any Falwells, Robertsons or Bushes here - or at least, very few.

Quote:
Those who hold politically ideological views opposed to mine frequently take offense at what i say, and claim to have been insulted, but i know of no one who is obliged to accept special pleading from them.


I've seen people get hot under the collar here, because of some political argument. But I disagree that the kind of "offense" I take at someone defending George Bush is the same in spirit as when someone ridicule's God.

Quote:
When the ideology is spiritual, i see no reason to accede to special pleading with regard to the beliefs of others, and especially when the premises are patently absurd, and conclusions drawn from them lead to misogyny, racism, elitism--to a host of what reasonable people everywhere consider to be unacceptable attitudes and behavior.


Again, I think I share the depth of indignation at ideologies which cause human suffering, and I agree that the practice of zealous religiosity has done so. But I believe it is the responsibility of those same "reasonable people" you mention to separate the Mother Theresas from the Jim Jones' of the world, and not throw out the baby with the bathwater in argument.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 08:37 am
Back to answer your points later, Snood. I haven't the time at the moment, which is not to be considered a relegation of your argument to a category of "unimportance" . . .
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snood
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 08:45 am
Setanta wrote:
Back to answer your points later, Snood. I haven't the time at the moment, which is not to be considered a relegation of your argument to a category of "unimportance" . . .


Understood
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DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 08:58 am
There is a great difference between ridiculing God and ridiculing someone's argument about God.
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 09:08 am
People do not generally ridicule God. What is being ridiculed is religions concept of God and what it demands of us. With each religion having it's own concept and proclaiming theirs is the true religion and all others are bogus.
IMO if the great American experiment fails it will have been caused by the divisiveness of religion. It is the worm eating away at America.
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snood
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 09:13 am
Granted. And if that line was clearly understood, accepted and unassaulted, there would be less grounds for any contention about ridiculing anything. When the sh*t starts flying, those who believe, what they believe in, and how they defend that belief are all pretty much lumped together.
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parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 09:16 am
God made fools in all shapes and sizes. Some believe in him and some don't.

The only thing they all have in common is they don't know when they are being fools.


(myself included.)
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 09:49 am
I would like to acknowledge to begin with the implicit compliment in your assertion that i would recognize and honor the sentiment of the individual described in your hypothetical. Indeed, i would honor such an expressed attitude, were it carried into action, and i would acknowledge and honor the unselfishness of making the deed match the sentiment, and the expression of the affection, for however incapable the object of that affection would be of realizing the benefaction and its expression.

I do not, however, consider that the analogy is appropriate. I do not believe that you would compare the deity in which you believe to be a flawed and uncomprehending entity. Nor do i consider the act of worship to be consonant with the care taken of an uncomprehending and incompetent individual. Finally, what i ridicule is the imposition of belief on others, and i freely acknowledge and do not apologize for ridiculing those who indulge in such behavior. To revert to your analogy, were someone paying lip service to such a devotion, and indulging in a loud self-congratulation for behaving in such a manner, i would have far less regard for them, and dependant upon the degree of their self-promotion, might well hold them in contempt. I am not contemptuous of those who hold a certain belief as being what seems best to them, but who do not propose it as the ideal for others. Therefore, i usually don't comment on their creed and the expression thereof. It is the "whited sepulchres, full of rotting flesh and dead men's bone's" who are the target of my contempt and ridicule. It is those who feel authorize, even compelled, to assert the superiority of their belief, and by extension, their own superiority to those who do not hold that belief. If someone chooses to take offense to the ridicule i heap on people such as that and the expression of their belief, then i can only observe that they place themselves in the same category as the object of my ridicule, and i frankly don't see you as that type of insufferable proselytizing believer, nor do i believe that your faith is such that you would impose on others.

A dictionary definition of proselytize reads:

Dictionary-dot-com wrote:
proselytize \PRAH-suh-luh-tyz\, intransitive verb:
1. To induce someone to convert to one's religious faith.
2. To induce someone to join one's institution, cause, or political party.


If you consider the second definition above, you will see why it is that i consider it special pleading to claim that religious ideology be exempt from the criticism we many of us level at other forms of ideology. I see no good reason to exempt religion from the stringent analysis commonly applied to other forms of ideology.

As for your own instance of special pleading, i have already noted that i don't consider your analogy valid. If you in fact believe that your deity is omnipotent and omniscient, then it simply does not follow that any harm is done by scorn on my part.

This is worth quoting:

Snood wrote:
I will only say that I share your disgust at the Jerry Falwells and Franklin Grahams and Osama bin Ladens of the world, but I think that their faith in God and mine have little in common both figuratively and in practice.


Because i think it makes the point i was making above, that you are not indeed in a category with the insufferable and imposing proselytizers, the worst of whom are murderous, such as bin Laden or Rudolph. Perhaps you will not agree, but i think i can fairly state that i "put my shots across the bows" of those whose posts at this site have made them fair game. I think that when you have objected to my characterizations, you have responded not to comments i have made about what you have expressed as your belief, but rather the ridicule i have heaped on others. I would not for a moment deny that i deploy as powerful a form of sarcasm and ridicule as i am capable of delivering--i think it fair to state that my targets have chosen themselves. I don't know that i've ever singled you out for ridicule, and if i have, i certainly do regret it, because i have never known you to put yourself into the category of the insufferable proselytizers.

Whether or not i have callously thrown out the baby, having dispensed with the bath, is not for me to judge. However, i think it obvious that i would defend myself by asserting that i had not done so.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 10:13 am
Setanta -
It's damn fun reading your writing.

I actually have very similar sentiments about the self-aggrandizing, publicly pious proseletyzers.

I appreciate that you don't consider me as the like.

Thanks for the (characteristically) considered reply.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 10:20 am
You're welcome, Snood, i enjoy your thoughts as well . . .

Now, can i get back to pokin' this here particular Muslim proselytizer with a pointy stick?
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 10:28 am
timberlandko wrote:
. . . Powerful, well structured, academically valid, intellectually honest arguments may be made for the religionist proposition. No one on these boards ever has approached, let alone presented, any such argument. Rather, the claims and assertions of some of the more energetic religionists in these discussions, and the defenses thereof, merit and honestly earn the respect accorded them. . .
Would you mind playing devil's advocate for a while and give us a look at what you call 'powerful'?
Setanta wrote:
You're welcome, Snood, i enjoy your thoughts as well . . .

Now, can i get back to pokin' this here particular Muslim proselytizer with a pointy stick?
BTW, Where is Hanna?
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 01:20 pm
neologist wrote:
timberlandko wrote:
. . . Powerful, well structured, academically valid, intellectually honest arguments may be made for the religionist proposition . . .


Quote:
Would you mind playing devil's advocate for a while and give us a look at what you call 'powerful'?

As I've mentioned previously, while I have neither intention nor inclination to carry the religionist's water for them, I don't mind showing them where the buckets are.

[url=http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1413138#1413138]timber[/url] wrote:
... As I've said before, strong arguments for Christianity and/or the Bible can be and have been made (cf. Anselm of Canterbury, Thomas Aquinas, C.S. Lewis, Alvin Plantinga, and William Lane Craig, among others ); not that those arguments necessarily prove the case, mind you, but strong, forensically valid arguments in support of either proposition - the Bible and/or Christianity - can be made, both independently and in context with one another. So far, no one in this discussion even has approached, let alone presented, anything resembling any of those arguments.
(Emphasis not in original; added to this particular citation, for clarity's sake - timber)

See also: This and This
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neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 02:27 pm
Thanks, timber.

I always appreciate your to the point answers.

HMMM. Seems I remember your argument based on probabilities. I rejected it based on the following analysis:

Either there are unicorns or there are not.
There are unicorns: 50% chance
There are no unicorns 50% chance.

Laughing

I've read Aquinas and C.S. Lewis and have not found their arguments definitive. I'll be reading a few others as well as making a thorough perusal of your answer to diagknowz. Catch you later.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Nov, 2005 03:10 pm
Re the unicorn reference - given that only a virgin pure, a maiden chaste and of 18 Summers, may capture a unicorn, the apparent absence of unicorns well may be due to a factor unrelated to the existance of unicorns :wink:
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