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The Eighth Myth About Islam (the big problem)

 
 
Reply Fri 11 Nov, 2005 06:36 am
The really big problem with Islam, as I see it, is that it's based on an altogether invalid claim, i.e. that there is such a thing as prophecy and/or prophets in our age of the world.

Mormonism (the LSD church) has the same basic problem. Joseph Smith in fact claimed to have derived at least parts of the main books of Mormonism from ancient Egyptian documents written in heiroglyphs using prophecy stones (urim) to translate them and this was before the Rosetta stone was decoded and scholars ever had any sort of a handle on heiroglyphics. Scholars fully able to read and interpret heiroglyphics have later gone back over the same documents and pronounced Smith's "translations" to be gibberish and Smith to be a fraud and a con man.

Fortunately for Mormons, most people don't really give a rat's ass about theology and theology plays little if any part in most people's decision making in choosing a church.

Likewise Mohammed claimed to be a prophet and to have derived the Koran in much the same fashion that Smith derived the book of Mormon and the other documents of his church.

You can find Mohammed's life story on the net easily enough and judge for yourself how "holy" or anything like that the guy was. The important question here is whether or not there's any rational way to think the guy might have been any sort of a "prophet". I claim he wasn't and that it's provable.

All ancient religious practices involved attempts to communicate with the spirit world directly, and this included prophets and prophecy, familiar spirits, idolatry, oracles and the like. The idea of prophecy involved trance states like hypnotism, during which the prophet's mind was joined to the mind of God and communication with the spirit world was possible.

Jews (serious hebrew scholars, not the lawyer down the street or the guy who owns the kosher deli) believe that all such phenomena passed out of the world around 2600 years ago or thereabouts at the time of Zechariah.
They claim that at that time they asked the Lord to lift the curse of idolatry from the world, and that he did, but that the world lost prophecy and all such related phenomena at the same time.

Whatever had been involved in prophecy was lost in a single day, like the story of the tower of Babel in which whatever man had been doing for language stopped working of an instant. For some time afterwards, a number of people went on trying to do the prophecy thing, but it quickly became apparent that, whereas in the past prophets had come back with useful information from the spirit world, what they were coming back with on the day after the whole thing fell apart was bogus information and gibberish and, since societies had depended on such information for their normal operation, there was danger involved in the idea of anybody taking prophecies seriously after the whole thing broke down.

Zechariah refers to prophets (after the end) as "unclean spirits" and suggests that people who go on trying to do prophecy be killed:

Quote:

ZEC 13:2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.

ZEC 13:3 And it shall come to pass, that <font color =' red'>when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through</font> when he prophesieth.

ZEC 13:4 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:


Likewise with oracles. The Greek city states had been run on information from Oracles for roughly a thousand years prior to some time just prior to Alexander. Plato described the Oracle at Delphi as the "interpretor of religion to the world", and took oracles very seriously. A couple of hundred years later, and nobody took them seriouisly anymore.

The ancient Greeks were sceptical people and yet they accepted oracles as a fact of life for many centuries and, then, suddenly, the whole thing broke down and they went on a search for a religion for a few centuries before settling on Christianity.

Likewise the first two paragraphs of the Book of Hebrews in the New Testament states that prophecy was a thing of past ages at the time of Christ and that in our age the spirit world is known through faith and through Christ who is the son of God, and not a prophet:


Quote:

BOOK OF HEBREWS

CHAPTER 1

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;


Part of the problem which God or something or other in the spirit world apparently solved for the human race is that whatever was had made prophecy possible had also made idolatry possible and idolatry had turned the planet into an insane assylum for a period of a thousand years or so after the flood.

The two definitely hung together and, logically, if the one still existed, the other would have to. Nonetheless since the time of Christ nobody has ever claimed that anybody has ever heard a real voice from an idol (which is what idolatry involved) and, likewise, claims of prophecy in our age (i.e. since Zechariah) are patently bogus.

Mohammed was a bandit chieftain who devised a religion for controlling increasingly larger collections of bandits, and that's basically all he was. Like I say, the guy's life story is easy to find on the web.
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yitwail
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Nov, 2005 01:06 pm
Re: The Eighth Myth About Islam (the big problem)
gungasnake wrote:
The two definitely hung together and, logically, if the one still existed, the other would have to. Nonetheless since the time of Christ nobody has ever claimed that anybody has ever heard a real voice from an idol (which is what idolatry involved) and, likewise, claims of prophecy in our age (i.e. since Zechariah) are patently bogus.


i also have doubts about Muhammad being a prophet, but there's a problem with your exegesis. Two passages from the Acts of the Apostles mentions a prophet by the name of Agabus, as well as other unnamed prophets:

Acts 11

[27] And in these days came prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch.
[28] And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.

Acts 21

[8] And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him.
[9] And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.
[10] And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus.
[11] And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.
[12] And when we heard these things, both we, and they of that place, besought him not to go up to Jerusalem.
[13] Then Paul answered, What mean ye to weep and to break mine heart? for I am ready not to be bound only, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus.
[14] And when he would not be persuaded, we ceased, saying, The will of the Lord be done.

this was in Roman times, well after Zechariah.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Nov, 2005 07:42 pm
Re: The Eighth Myth About Islam (the big problem)
yitwail wrote:
gungasnake wrote:
The two definitely hung together and, logically, if the one still existed, the other would have to. Nonetheless since the time of Christ nobody has ever claimed that anybody has ever heard a real voice from an idol (which is what idolatry involved) and, likewise, claims of prophecy in our age (i.e. since Zechariah) are patently bogus.


i also have doubts about Muhammad being a prophet, but there's a problem with your exegesis. Two passages from the Acts of the Apostles mentions a prophet by the name of Agabus, as well as other unnamed prophets:

Acts 11

[27] And in these days came prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch.
[28] And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.

Acts 21

[8] And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him.
[9] And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.
[10] And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus.
[11] And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.
[12] And when we heard these things, both we, and they of that place, besought him not to go up to Jerusalem.
[13] Then Paul answered, What mean ye to weep and to break mine heart? for I am ready not to be bound only, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus.
[14] And when he would not be persuaded, we ceased, saying, The will of the Lord be done.

this was in Roman times, well after Zechariah.


Apparently people still tried to do the prophet thing at Jesus' time, but it didn't really work the way it had a thousand years earlier. The beginning of the book of Hebrews makes no sense if prophecy were sitll going on and producing useable information at the time.

Likewise nobody has ever claimed to be an oracle or to have heard a real voice coming from an idol since the time of Christ.

All of those things were part and parcel of the same sort of thing and apparently amounted to a different sort of paradigm for the actual use of the human brain, which is no longer really possible.

The most major book on the subject is Julian Jaynes' "Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind". One somewhat more radical interpretation of the same set of phenomena which I've noticed is:

http://designeduniverse.com/christian_catastrophism/index.php?showtopic=23
0 Replies
 
yitwail
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Nov, 2005 09:52 pm
i happen to have read that book, what a coincidence eh? anyhow, i don't know that the prophecy question will have much bearing on Muhammad, because in Islam he's a Messenger, as well as a Prophet. Gabriel, the Archangel, delivers the message to Muhammad, which he then recites to scribes, and the Quran is the collection of all the recited verses.
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Nov, 2005 04:34 am
yitwail wrote:
i happen to have read that book, what a coincidence eh? anyhow, i don't know that the prophecy question will have much bearing on Muhammad, because in Islam he's a Messenger, as well as a Prophet. Gabriel, the Archangel, delivers the message to Muhammad, which he then recites to scribes, and the Quran is the collection of all the recited verses.


You ever read through much of the Koran?

Quote:

Go thou forth, and rape, pillage, and kill everybody on the planet who doesn't submit.....


I mean, Jesus said we can know false prophets by their works like the fruits of an evil tree; Islam doesn't really strike me as that difficult to figure out.
0 Replies
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Nov, 2005 04:41 am
gungasnake wrote:
yitwail wrote:
i happen to have read that book, what a coincidence eh? anyhow, i don't know that the prophecy question will have much bearing on Muhammad, because in Islam he's a Messenger, as well as a Prophet. Gabriel, the Archangel, delivers the message to Muhammad, which he then recites to scribes, and the Quran is the collection of all the recited verses.


You ever read through much of the Koran?

Quote:

Go thou forth, and rape, pillage, and kill everybody on the planet who doesn't submit.....


I mean, Jesus said we can know false prophets by their works like the fruits of an evil tree; Islam doesn't really strike me as that difficult to figure out.


Where's that bit in the Qu'ran gunga? The raping and pillaging bit I mean.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Nov, 2005 10:22 am
goodfielder wrote:


Where's that bit in the Qu'ran gunga? The raping and pillaging bit I mean.



Throughout it. Why?
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Nov, 2005 06:26 pm
gungasnake,

The Qu'ran says to kill the infidels, right? Can you tell me who the infidels are?
0 Replies
 
goodfielder
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Nov, 2005 07:27 pm
gungasnake wrote:
goodfielder wrote:


Where's that bit in the Qu'ran gunga? The raping and pillaging bit I mean.



Throughout it. Why?


I couldn't find a reference to it. Must have missed it.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Nov, 2005 08:25 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
gungasnake,

The Qu'ran says to kill the infidels, right? Can you tell me who the infidels are?



Mainly you and I.....
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Nov, 2005 08:26 pm
Ok, what makes you and I infidels?
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Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Nov, 2005 11:28 am
Momma Angel wrote:
Ok, what makes you and I infidels?


I'm not sure about you, but maybe gungasnake is an infidel for lying about there being raping and pillaging throughout the Quran.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Nov, 2005 12:52 pm
I am just curious. Have heard many different things and thought maybe I could get some clarification. I highly suspect though, being a Christian, I would definitely be an infidel according to Islam.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Nov, 2005 01:39 pm
Momma Angel wrote:
gungasnake,

The Qu'ran says to kill the infidels, right? Can you tell me who the infidels are?


MA, I just search the 'Islam Q&A' thread thinking this must have been asked at some point. I couldn't see that it ever was asked but its a good question for that thread.

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=50820

Having never read the Qu'ran I would be guessing at best but I think all nonbelievers are considered infidels. I'm not sure that the Qu'ran says to kill all infidels but I am aware that it has been interpreted to say such.
0 Replies
 
Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Nov, 2005 01:50 pm
Re: The Eighth Myth About Islam (the big problem)
gungasnake wrote:

Jews (serious hebrew scholars, not the lawyer down the street or the guy who owns the kosher deli) believe that all such phenomena passed out of the world around 2600 years ago or thereabouts at the time of Zechariah.


Spotting the subtle (and not so subtle) snotty biases in one of your posts is always a fun activity, gungasnake. Here's my fave in this one.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Nov, 2005 01:56 pm
J_B,

Thanx for sending me to the right thread. I posted my question. Will let you know if I find out anything.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Nov, 2005 09:37 pm
Re: The Eighth Myth About Islam (the big problem)
D'artagnan wrote:
gungasnake wrote:

Jews (serious hebrew scholars, not the lawyer down the street or the guy who owns the kosher deli) believe that all such phenomena passed out of the world around 2600 years ago or thereabouts at the time of Zechariah.


Spotting the subtle (and not so subtle) snotty biases in one of your posts is always a fun activity, gungasnake. Here's my fave in this one.


That one falls under the heading of theology and most people don't give a rat's ass about theology. Best example I know of is the LSD church and the thing about the Rosetta stone. Most Mormons either don't know about that or don't give a rat's ass about it one way or another.

I was mrely stating that while the typical jew neither knows nor cares anything about that particular topic (prophecy), serious Jewish scholars do and their opinion on it is much as I describe.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Nov, 2005 09:40 pm
gungasnake,

Will you answer my question, please?
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2005 11:08 pm
Wolf_ODonnell wrote:
Momma Angel wrote:
Ok, what makes you and I infidels?


I'm not sure about you, but maybe gungasnake is an infidel for lying about there being raping and pillaging throughout the Quran.


Try this:

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/1103/elder_2003_11_20.php3

Quote:

Larry Elder: Is Islam a religion of peace that's been hijacked by Islamic extremists, as George W. Bush says?

Robert Spencer: There are millions of peaceful Muslims . . . but the fact is that radical Muslims are using core texts of Islam that are deeply rooted in Islamic theology, tradition, history and law to justify their actions, and those radical Muslims are able to recruit and motivate terrorists around the world by appealing to these core Islamic texts. . . . As far as the radical, violent elements of the religion go, they are very deeply rooted, and we are naive in the extreme if we don't recognize that and try to get moderate Muslims to acknowledge it so that real reform can take place.

Elder: Have some translations of the Koran taken out the more extreme statements?

Spencer: The only Koran that really matters is what's in Arabic, because as far as traditional Islamic theology goes, Allah . . . was speaking to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel, and the language is intrinsic, can't be separated from the message. The fact is that what's in Arabic is very clear . . . but in two opposite directions. What you have are very many verses of peace and tolerance, and also very many verses sanctioning and mandating violence against non-believers. . . .



I mean, that's the basic reality of it. I don't do other people's research for them; the Koran is available online in enough places for you to read it at your own leisure.
0 Replies
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2005 05:21 am
Gungasnake, I wouldn't trust you to do research for me anyway. I've seen your posts, especially the one where you claimed Islamists are fascists. Many of them are filled with biased sources tailored to prove that anything that does not follow your beliefs is inherently evil.

But here's another post, which I'm sure is biased in the opposite direction to your article.

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Silas/juancole.htm

Momma Angel, I encourage you to read both. Gungasnake's article is biased against Muslims. Mine is biased for Muslims. Believe what you will, because like with the Bible, it is all down to interpretation.
0 Replies
 
 

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