Francis wrote:After your vibrant advocacy of fairness, George, I think you may be Irish :wink:
I am indeed ! The son of immigrants born in Waterford and Clare. (In the big city where I grew up, if you answered the question "What are you?" with "American", you had to be tough. We had Poles, Germans, Jews, Italians, Czechs, and what we called 'Syrians' (really Iraqis, as we learned later) but few 'Americans'. The French, like the English, had come long before and were, by then, thoroughly assimilated)
With your sometimes arch way of expressing things, you just might be French. That Walter is a German, there is no doubt.
Walter Hinteler wrote:Finn d'Abuzz wrote:And, I am sure, that there was never a Hinteler who was a member of the Nazi Party.
Correct.
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:Even post-modernists find it difficult to refute that the Third Reich was truly evil, and the Third Reich would never have been possible without the aggregated approval of the German people.
The horrors of the Third Reich are not common to the human experience, and therefore it is a quite legitimate question to ask: "How did the German people allow these horrors?"
Correct as well.
And, honestly, since I've been able to get what happened there, I'd never found a satisfactorily answer to that question.
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:Germans, at least initially (i.e. Krystalnacht), are not able to assert that they were forced into behaviors they would normally shun because of the threat of a dictatorial power.
Your term sounds very "nice", IMHO. It wasn/t at all like just distroying some glass - as this word from the Nazi-terminology might indicate - it was far, far worse: a progrom, as it is called correctly.
Interesting judo move. OK - I'm happy to agree that "Krystalnacht" was much worse than the term implies.
And so we are left with the question of the contribution of the aggregate of Germans to, at least, the 20th century.
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
And so we are left with the question of the contribution of the aggregate of Germans to, at least, the 20th century.
How do you evaluate such things? Do you hold the "Russians" accountable for Stalin's murders? They surpassed Hitler's by a factor of two or three. Mao Tse Tung of China surpassed them both, and by a wide margin. How would you judge the contribution of the "Chnese" to the twentieth century? Would you judge Cambodians responsible for Pol Pot? On a relatve scale (as a % of available population ) he surpassed them all.
The United States likely killed about a million civilians in the cities of Japan and Germany. Are Americans one sixth as guilty as Germans?
I totally agree with you, George Ob1, this is a venue about events and ideas-not losers and winners. I am sure, however, that you did not miss my post in which I said that, since it is a venue about events and ideas, I am mystified as to why 95% of the posts made by posters like Walter Hinteler are negative Vis a vis the United States, its policies and its administrators.
As a person who visited Chicago not long ago, he should have FILLED these posts with praises for that fair city and its inhabitants. He has not, to the best of my knowledge.
If you are upset with my posts because they appear to be unfair, I am telling you that I can be as fair as the next man, as long as they are fair with me and my country. I do not expect unexamined encomiums, but I do expect balance and when I don't get it, I become unbalanced also.
If you would like to see a change in my posts, watch the posts that Mr. Hinteler and Mr. Francis make first.
Oh,yes, and it is a fact that the US University System is the best in the world and the German system is limping badly. As I said, and I do not fear contradiction on this score, the Germans should have let all of the brilliant Jewish Scholars stay in German without oppression. It is possible that Germany would now not be laboring under a very high unemployment rate and a miniscule GDP.
The last line is a riposte to all of the negatives tossed at the US by Mr. Hinteler and Mr. Francis in the last couple of years.
They can, of course, strive to find some good things to say about the USA.
I can find many good things to say about France and Germany but not while there is so much negativism on the part of Mr.Hinteler and Mr.Francis.
bernardgato, you consistently appear to be a silly goose who has nothing to post other than very silly comments such as the bathing habits of germans and/or french persons. I offer the opinion that your socks don't match and leave it at that.
Finn once apposed a post I made re Spiro Agenew by refering to my Stetson hat as rendernering me illogical. This says a great deal about Finn.
BernardR.
Frankly I haven't seen the persistent anti U.S. bias you ascribe to both Francis and Walter. There is a good deal of European vs American give and take on these threads, but I have never seen either of them rise above (or below, depending on your perspective) the norms for this. Walter is a moderate socialist of the Westphalian variety (he, of course will, quibble with my terminology), and that political perspective does color his assessment of things. However that hardly counts as a bias against America.
Both of them have endured my own sometimes persistent criticisms of European political and economic policies with relatively good humor. We strongly disagree on many things, but that has not required or brought about mutual disrespect or antipathy.
As for the Universities I believe the very best of ours may well be better than most of theirs. However that is not a balanced comparison, An old academic adage was that the best of all possible university educations is an undergraduate degree from a good European University and a graduate degree from a good American one. This is not altogether true, but it does illustrate a meaningful difference. The pluses and the minuses in this game are distributed on both sides of the ocean, A similar thing may be true in secondary education. In our more competitive society many things, from incomes to the quality of education, are a bit more variable than they are in Europe. This also means higher highs and lower lows. To some degree this has been a reflection of the greater homogenity of European populations and our greater experience of immigration. In many respects these differences are being reduced by new events.
Why should you make your own good behavior contingent on your perception of the presence or lack of it in others? Surely you are better than that rather puerile standard. I believe that if you came to grips with these points, you would by pleasantly surprised at the reaction. Moreover you would find new sources of interest and satisfaction in this dialogue.
dyslexia wrote:Finn once apposed a post I made re Spiro Agenew by refering to my Stetson hat as rendernering me illogical. This says a great deal about Finn.
But what does it say about your goddamn hat?
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:You've already established that you are a Rightie whom Setanta, Walter and Blatham might find reasonable. No need to repeat yourself ad nauseum.
You do seem to harbor a particular distaste for anyone who dare cross the harsh lines of your preconceptions of Leftie vs Rightie behaviour. What is it about that, in particular, that rouses your resentment?
Faced with y'r typical leftie, you will show ill-conceived contempt. But it's only when you happen upon a leftie whose course turns out not to fit some of the loonier-left's talking points, or a rightie who actually engages in a dialogue with lefties as if they had something useful to say, that you appear to really get your gander up. Why is that?
Otherwise, by the way, compliments to the discussants I stumbled on here. Hadnt visited this thread in quite a while, hadnt expected to find it back in such a commendably sincere state.
Well, GeorgeOb1- You are Irish.Now wonder. Now I know why you take the positions you are taking.
You know, the Irish in the United States were judged to bethe scum of the earth when they came here. They were complicit in the horrible New York Draft Riots and had the reputation of being troublesome and argumentative drunks.
The Irish homeland was cursed with the superstition of Roman Catholicism and because of the intolerance of the church against Birth Control, families were so large that many children were not properly cared for.
Additionally, the Irish, with their rigid morality, suppressed such genius as that of George Bernard Shaw and James Joyce, one of the world's greatest writers.
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Although these statements can be documented as fact, George Ob1, they give a very unbalanced and one sided picture of the Irish( as you very
well know.
The Irish can be credited with saving Christianity in the inaccessible monasteries of that rugged Island.
Irish literature and plays make up some of the greatest contributions to the world's literature.
The sons and daughters of the Irish are part of the bedrock in America and they make up an ethnic group--now rather diluted but still powerful in its ethnicity--which has filled the legislative halls of America on every level.
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There is a balance.
I have NEVER read a positive comment about the USA or its administrators from either Francis or Walter Hinteler.
I can wait..........
OK -- but watch your lip about the Irish.
There is very little evidence that the Irish in any way suppressed Jonathan Swift, GBS, Oscar Wilde, James Joyce, or the esteemed William Butler Yeats, ... or even J.P. Donlevy of Seamus Heaney. Indeed it was the severe influence of Anglo Saxon Victorian Prudishness that attempted that, not the Irish. The Jansenist Catholicism to which you refer was a 19th century import from France (and wasn't particularly successful there either). Irish Catholicism had been notably tolerant before that. Early Irish immigrants to America overdid the propriety thing in their attempts (successful) to overcome the intolerance that had been directed at them, and wh8ich you described. Birthrates in Ireland and elsewhere in the world have much more to do with economic conditions than religion. You are merely reciting shopworn prejudices in that cliche.
OK- George Ob1- The Irish were not cast as drunks and roisterers in the late nineteenth century and were not shut out of jobs with the epithet- NoIrish need apply.
They were not a major part of the Anti-Draft Riots in New York.
They were not the ethnic group featured in the newspapers of the major cities of the USA( Boston, New York, Chicago) as the major "criminals"of the late nineteenth century.
James Joyce was celebrated in his homeland after the publication of Ulysses and had everything he submitted to the publisher in Dublin snapped up.
GBS( See GBS Man of the Century- Volume I- P. 233- was rarely presented. His successes on the continent were, paradoxically, much greater.
I said nothing about Wilde, Swift or J. P, Donleavy.
I am sure that the large families of the Irish were not at all due to the teachings of the Catholic Church.
Economic Conditions make for smaller families?
Do you mean that the Economic Conditions in Russia, Germany, Spain, and Italy have caused those countries to go to ZPG?
I would have rather thought that the main cause was the adoption of "Secularism"
Look, George Ob1. You are a learned man. You have a great command of the language. You are a very tolerant person. Why is it so difficult for you to understand that when some one from Germany or France calls our President a tyrant, it is resented. It is especially resented when it is clear that those countries have had tyrants that make our chief executives look like saints.
Stalin, Hitler, Franco, Mussolini.
Why is it so difficult for you to understand that when someone from Germany or France mocks our way of life and our culture,it is resented.
Those lands, after all, produced Lavrenti Beria, Adolf Eichmann, and Francino Caballero.
I am afraid that you did not address the main thrust of my last post--I will repeat. I am aware that there are indeed many imperfections in the Democratic system in the United States. However, I will continue to maintain that if more countries of the world adopted our, admittedly imperfect, but highly successful political and economic system, the world would be better off.
I think there is a great deal of evidence to show that Communism has failed. Its stepsister, Socialism, has not done very well either. For those who espouse those two failing systems and wish to critique ours,I can only say---Please give a rational as to why so many people wishes to come to live and work in our country.
I can't prove it,George Ob1, but I think most of the potshots taken by foreigners who have no real conception of the Zeitgeist( A good German Word) of the US, are motivated by that most destructive of vices-
Unalloyed envy!!!
If it were not envy, they would act as gentlemen and comment on some of the postive elements found in the USA. Certainly, they could, if they tried, find something good to say!
BernardR wrote: Why is it so difficult for you to understand that when some one from Germany or France calls our President a tyrant, it is resented. It is especially resented when it is clear that those countries have had tyrants that make our chief executives look like saints.
Stalin, Hitler, Franco, Mussolini.
Besides that you failed to name just one person from either France or Germany who called your president a tyrant - it's the very fisrt time, btw, that I noticed such words even here, thanks for naming it such (although I totally disagree with it) -only Hitler is from Germany and none from France.
BernardR wrote:I have NEVER read a positive comment about the USA or its administrators from either Francis or Walter Hinteler.
I can wait..........
Nor a negative either as I made no comment on the USA politics...
But you can guess on this comment :
Bad things in the USA
Oh, my opinion about US-politics.
I have my opinions about that, like about German, British, French etc.
Seldom some government agrees with them.
I don't start any discussion about American coffee .... especially not about so-called "French roasted".
I agree with you about Starbucks, Francis. I never go there. But, seriously, don't you realize that the USA is the world's pre-eminent superpower and as such will be criticized by persons from other countries?
I am sure that you realize that countries do decline and lose power. At one time, "The sun never set on the British Empire".
If you and Walter Hinteler do not recognize that a great deal( certainly,not all) of the criticism of the USA comes from ENVIOUS people, I can document it for you.
I am sure that you realize,Francis, that all countries have thier problems. As President Clinton once replied when someone commented that a plan that was put forward was not perfect--"The perfect is the enemy of the good".
France has been severely criticized. The noted author, William L. Shirer, in his famous and highly lauded book -The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich- wrote--
P. 291
"Hitler reached his decision, somewhat to the consternation of the generals, most of whom were convinced that the French would make mincemeat of the small German forces which had been gathered for the move into the Rhineland...If it turned out that the French would fight--the Commander in Chief, Blomberg, already had in mind what those countermeasures would be: a hasty retreat back over the Rhine. But the Fernch, their nation already paralyzed by internal strife and the people sinking into defeatism, did not know this when a small token force of German troops paraded across the Rhine bridges at dawn on March 7 and entered the demilitarized zone...(P. 292)But the French never made the slightest move...(P 293-) Considering the situation we were in,The French Covering army could have blown us to pieces, said Jodl when he testified at Nuremberg. IT COULD HAVE, AND HAD IT, THAT ALMOST CERTAINLY WOULD HAVE BEEN THE END OF HITLER, AFTER WHICH HISTORY MIGHT HAVE TAKEN QUITE A DIFFERENT AND BRIGHTER TURN THAN IT DID, FOR THE DICTATOR COULD NOT HAVE SURVIVED SUCH A FIASCO. Hitler himself admitted as much, He remarked: A retreat on our part, he conceded later,would have spelled collapse"
Now, if Shirer's charge is correct, the French Nation was responsible for allowing Hitler's regime to continue.
All nations have problems.Germany had them; France had them: Italy had them, and certainly the USA had them.
Why don't we look for political and juridical models in each country the entire world can emulate instead of taking sadistic joy at picking at sore spots like The French Collapse and German Militarism?
BernardR wrote:I agree with you about Starbucks, Francis. I never go there. But, seriously, don't you realize that the USA is the world's pre-eminent superpower and as such will be criticized by persons from other countries?
I am sure that you realize that countries do decline and lose power. At one time, "The sun never set on the British Empire".
If you and Walter Hinteler do not recognize that a great deal( certainly,not all) of the criticism of the USA comes from ENVIOUS people, I can document it for you.
I am sure that you realize,Francis, that all countries have thier problems. As President Clinton once replied when someone commented that a plan that was put forward was not perfect--"The perfect is the enemy of the good"....
The problem with you, Bernard, is that you invent yourself enemies.
I stated previously that I've no doubt that the US is the world's pre-eminent superpower..
But I strongly disagree that the criticism of the US equates with ENVIOUS people. Probably you feel it morally more comfortable but try to take others point of view.
I, for one, have "absolutely no reason" to be envious of the US. Maybe that's what bothers you...
Now, if Clinton quotes François-Marie Arouet (Aka Voltaire), why not?
I am happy that you have no reason to be envious of the USA. I am certain then that, as an intelligent commentator who obviously reads( of Course, you are French but even not all the French know that Voltaire was really Arouet.) you can find some positive things to say about the USA.
Here's a parphrase of a good quote for you--Winston Churchill--
"Democracy is the worst form of government-except for all the rest"
And,please, sir,I do not think that I am inventing myself enemies by quoting Shirer. If you think he is incorrect, please say so. I quoted Shirer to demonstrate that one can find negatives for any country.
Again, and I am sorry if I am being redundant,let us find some good things to say.
Let me begin-
My favorite novel is ( in translation of course) "The Magic Mountain" by the superb genius Thomas Mann.
I have read it at least five times and it gets better with each reading.
