Riots in France

It's one of my prefered books too.

New York is a magic city...

Do you mean "Preferred"?

Yes, some people might consider New York a Magic city.Certainly, it is one of the world's premier cities in many ways. You should have seen the city before former Mayor RudyGiuliani cleaned it up. It was very crime ridden. Giuliani used something called "the broken window"theory.Briefly, it means that when you take care of the little things( broken windows as an example) the big things fall into place.

One of the things I have always admired about Rome is that, although they have graffiti like New York does, Roman graffiti is almost always political and much more intelligent than the New York graffiti. The Romans might write--Viva Berlusconi--whereas the New Yorkers write-
PR Gangsters rule.

Yes, I do mean preferred...

But you see, I know all those things and I can acknowledge that a good job was done there...

"in translation of course": does that make him less German?

Walter, you are quibbling again.

Mann is indeed a wonderful writer. I also liked his stories about Felix Krull, Death in Venice, and many of his short stories.

One of the latter Mann short stories, titled "Desolation" (I believe), was the inspiration for a well known and unforgettable song by the incomparable Peggy Lee -- "Is that All There is?".

BernardR,

I will readily acknowledge a relative lack of objectivity when it comes to the Irish. Both my grandfgathers were immigrant laborers. My father, who came here as a child, made his way in the world through the legal profession and politics. I grew up in a world of Irish Americans working their way up off the bottom of the social and economic ladder, often in the face of the same prejudices you eneumerated. Along the way they certainly overemphasized the superficial proprieties that Joyce himself so resented. However it didn't go very deep: passion, fury, and rebellion were just below the surface and manifested themselves in various ways - often the drivers of great achievements in venues both good and bad. (I was raised to believe that the world was populated with two groups of people: Irish Catholics and poor, souls who desperately wished they were. By the time I discovered that wasn't true, I no longer gave a damn.)

I believe Americans do indeed exhibit a preoccupation with themselves and their uniqueness that is often exasperating to even sympathetic foreigners. We are indeed exceptions to many of the ruules of Western history, but not to all of them (as we sometimes imply). I believe we need to make allowances for that - a need that I often ignore myself. Oddly, the very qualities about the French that so often irritate us - the implicit belief that they are the eternal center of modern civilization, and that everyone should speak and think as they do - are precisely the same qualities that we so often manifest to others.

No, not at all. Only responding to BernardR



My favourite since I was 12 :wink:

(I recently read all his [published] diaries again: a really amazing figure [and an even more amazing family, all the Manns: Golo Mann, his son, has always been my favourite historian; his brother Heinrich Mann belongs to the - in my opinion - most unreconised German writers].)

I'm glad you ascertain a certain amount of contradiction in your discourse as, not long ago,

Goddamn French !

Mr. Hinteler was quibbling again says Mr. GeorgeOB1. Indeed, he was and I will relate a true story about Thomas Mann.

There is an American Novelist named Philip Jackson who wrote some fairly good novels among which was the novel-"The Lost Weekend" which was written up as a movie script and won the Academy Award in 1945.

Philip Jackson idolized Thomas Mann because of his writings. He went to Germany in hopes of getting an audience with him.

He was admitted to Thomas Mann's home and was greeted by Mrs.Mann.

She asked him whether he was familiar with Mann's works. Philip Jackson told her that he was and, indeed, he had read all of Mann's books.

Mrs.Mann asked him when and where he had learned German.

Philip Jackson told her that he did not read German but, indeed, read her husband's works in translation.

Mrs.Mann replied: I am very sorry, but if you can't read German,you really haven't read my husband's work.

That, Mr. Hinteler,. is why I mentioned translation.

Perhaps you are not aware that a person who reads a work in translation cannot really FULLY understand all of the nuances supplied by the writer in the original NO MATTER HOW SKILLED THE TRANSLATOR!


That principle, Mr. Hinteler, goes for your comments on the American scene. Since you do not know the American Zeitgeist, you cannot possibly FULLY understand the American ways--just as Mrs.Mann told Philip Jackson he had not REALLY read Thomas Mann's works.

Francis- I have read a great many French authors. I find them to be among the greatest writers in the world.

One of my favorites is Edmond Rostand-the man who wrote the wonderful play- Cyrano DeBergerac.

I am sure you are famliar with it. I have read it quite a few times since I am so fond of Cyrano, his character and his beautiful speeches.

I know you are aware of Cyrano's challenge in which he states( after he has made fun of his own huge nose) --"I say these things about myself but I allow no one else to say them"

A man with pride who will not be slandered!!

A man to be emulated, Francis?

I think not. Apparently that was Rostand's judgement as well.

I am. That's what I was told as well from and at various institutions.[/quote]




You may certainly say that I don't folow your arguments on this topic.
But judging that I don't know the American Zeitgeist lacks any basis.

Oh, so you know the American Zeitgeist? You are aware, I am sure, that the Zeitgeist( in defintions I have read, refers to the "Taste and characteristic of a period or generation"

May I be so intrusive to ask how you became so familiar with the Zeitgeist of the USA?

May I respectfully ask for your sources?

You see, Mr. Hinteler, unless you are a most talented and highly learned person, I doubt you are aware of all of the complex tastes and characteristics of the last ten years in the USA. Even some of our so-called most learned commetators on the American Scene profess their ignorance about the causes and effects of certain cultural events.

May I respectfully inquire as to the sources on your knowledge concering the Zeitgeist of the USA?

Gerogeob1- I have read Rostand's Cyrano De Bergerac five or six times.

Unless I misunderstand you or your comment is cryptic, I must tell you that you are wrong when, in response to my question to Francis-

A man to be emulated, Francis

You comment--I think not, Apprently that was Rostand's judgment as well.

Please supply evidence, sir, that you are correct! I would be astonished if you were correct.

It is only my opinion and interpretation of the play. It was a tragedy, and the virtue you ascribe to Cyrano was in fact his fatal flaw. I don't mean to suggest that the character was not admirabvle in many respects. However, great literature (and I agree this is great literature) very often involves looking beneath the surface of the traits, apparently good or bad, of interesting characters to expose their true nature, even while retaining a sympathetic view of the character in question.

I liked the characters in Stendhal's novels even better, Julien Sorel and Fabrizio del Dongo are unforgettable examples.

Excuse me,George Ob1, I thought you said that Rostand also thought so. Now I see it is your opinion.

That's fine. But I strongly disagree with you that it was Cyrano's fatal flaw.

It was the center of his integrity; his courage and the reason we admire him.

quote to his friend, Le Bret, when Le Bret excoriates him for not accepting De Guiche's offer to have Cardinal Richelieu( his uncle) help him to publish Cyrano's plays if only Cyrano will allow the Cardinal to "rewrite a few lines here and there"

Cyrano strongly refuses:

quote:

Cyrano-"Impossible. My blood curdles to think of altering one comma"

De Guiche:

Ah, but when he likes a thing he pays well

Cyrano:

Yes- but not so well as I- When I have made a line that sings itself So that I love the sound of it--I pay Myself a hundred times.


Who would not admire Cyrano??? I often think of Cyrano's last line above when I write.

Since the topic of this thread is now derailed completely - but I'm not the creator of it - I'll certainly answer your question.


But before, may I asked you about the sources of your education and knowledge about what you know, write, say and answer as well?

I short: I've started learning about it at school. Then, it this theme was picked up in various courses at various studies I made at various universities. Later, I followed it in various magazines, books and newspapers.
Unfortunately, I neither kept a diary about what I learnt when about what subject.
If I had known, you would have asked my this question here and now, I certainly would have done so.

So, to summarise: no, I really can't give you the sources.

Walter, perhaps you should let it go as well. Wwe left the topic of this thread pages ago.

I will give you my sources>I hold three Master's Degrees and an ABD( all but Dissertation) from the University of Chicago. You do know that University,Mr. Hinteler? It is one of the top twenty Universities in the USA.

I dare say I have read as much as you have about the USA and I will assert that I have an advantage that you do not have. I know the "Zeitgeist" of the US better than you do.

So,please forgive me when I politely rebut some of your ideas about the politics or culture of the USA with my assertion that you are mistaken!

Thank you,sir!!

It really isn't far from french riots to French literature.

Enough with the challenges and posturing on both sides of this foolish dispute !