Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Nov, 2005 01:28 pm
You YOURSELF bring evidence that a significant "French news conspiracy" DOES exist--and then try to act as though it is unreasonable to think if they'll cover up ONE controversial fact, they'll cover up ANOTHER.

Are you sincerely comfortable with that?

To recap an earlier exchange--

Lash wrote:
This is where we differ. I've seen on-the-scene reports or violence in Lyons, when the gov said it hadn't happened. [..] I base my opinion on what I see and hear, just like you do. I've heard reportage and seen footage that belied the French gov's issued statements that the past night had neglible violence. We saw pictures and heard local commentary.

Nimh responded:
You seem to base an awful lot of your argument on the one instance where you found that the government underplayed the violence that you had seen on your screen.

The problem with that is that I already explicitized that my point is not about believing the French government - never trust an official statement at face value, etc; it is about believing the reportage from the neighbourhoods themselves, believing the organisations that work in these neighbourhoods, at least in the absence of persuasive countertestimonies. And finding that their reports do not bear out any of the speculation about a concerted organisation of the riots by Islamic organisations.

Basically, I showed you a random selection of on-the-spot reportage that illustrates violence that wasnt particularly religiously inspired and was definitely not "organised" by Muslim organisations, and your retort is that one can't believe the French government when it says the violence wasn't that bad. That seems irrelevant twice, because the degree of violence was not in question, and it wasn't the French government statements I was referring you to.
_____________________
The veracity was in question, and it has been proven untrustworthy. Why do you believe them when they've admitted to lying?

And BTW, again: I didn't say it was organised by Muslim "organizations", but Muslim youth. Maybe next week, the truth will be told about that, as well.

<underlines by Lash for illustrative purposes>
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Nov, 2005 05:51 pm
Lash wrote:
You YOURSELF bring evidence that a significant "French news conspiracy" DOES exist

Nah.. i bring evidence that there have been notable French newscasters who felt uncomfortable about showing the full extent of the riots, and partly covered things up. A conspiracy, on the other hand, implies a concerted agreement among the whole cabal ...

Lash wrote:
--and then try to act as though it is unreasonable to think if they'll cover up ONE controversial fact, they'll cover up ANOTHER.

Are you sincerely comfortable with that?

Nooooo ... what I said (in the post right above yours in fact), was: "The extent of the rioting can easily be verified in non-French media reports. The religious fervour of the rioters that you assert, I have not seen evidenced in non-French media reports."

Ie: even if some French media were inclined to underplay the general extent of the riots, we have been easily able to verify the full extent of what did happen in the reports brought from the spot by reporters from all over the world. Right?

But your additional hypothesis is that the French media ALSO underplayed the way that, according to you, most of the riots were inspired by religion. But that hypothesis I have not seen credibly confirmed in the from-the-spot reports from other journalists from over the world.

Re: the extent of the riots: its not hard to imagine a more or less widespread individual inclination among French media to underplay events. Whereas there's no reason for journalists from elsewhere to share that desire: if anything, there's enough countries where audiences crave to hear about how bad the Frenchies messed up to make it a commercially winning deal to show the full extent of it.

OK, so far so good, cause thats exactly what we've seen: widespread international media coverage of the violence.

Now, I am already more sceptical about the hypothesis that there was a widespread inclination among French media to specifically underplay the religious element of the riots. I'd say that for many, especially on the right (and yes, there's right-wing media in France too), it's actually a lot more convenient to focus on religion as a cause than on the decades of neglect and institutionalised racism that they, the white French, themselves are to blame for.

But sure, let's imagine that there were also French media who, out of fear of helping Le Pen, underplayed the purported religious element of the rioting, specifically. But then that would have come out in the reports from all the international reporters on the spot too, right? Just like they showed the full extent of the violence?

I mean, considering how people all over the West are especially concerned/interested in the Muslim-extremist angle (so much more interesting than your run-of-the-mill story of ghetto youth running amock), it wouldn't make commercial sense for the international reporters to shove that aspect, in particular, under the carpet - collectively, even.

Well, I read a lot of reports in different countries' papers about the riots, and I didnt get away with the impression of bearded fundamentalists spurring the rioters on in much any of 'em. In fact, a lot of 'em emphasised not only the all too secular teenage rage behind the rioting, fuelled more by hip-hop than the Quran, but also the fact that, if anything, the mosques were playing an intermediary role, actively working to calm their neighbourhoods down.

Like I said, the difference between us, I suppose, is that I dont believe in a global conspiracy of on-the-spot reporters to collectively underplay the religious element of the riots. Too far-fetched. (Never one for conspiracy theories.)

In short: you and I have never differed about a certain unease about the French media not paying sufficient attention to the riots, per se. Hey, I actually raised that point way before you, in this post of 16 November, so you could have spared yourself the effort on that one.

But your other point, that the riots were supposedly mostly inspired by religion, I don't agree with - not just on the basis of what i've seen back home in Holland, but also because it's contradicted by most all the reporting I've read.

Finally, not to put too fine a point on it, but the reason I called you out for - not racism, but close enough - sweeping xenophobe generalisations it was, I believe - was, quite specifically, this post - the last long green-font stuff.

Now I dunno whether you blur these distinctions deliberately, because it is quite convenient for you to act like you were called xenophobic just because you came out and said you thought the riots were religiously inspired - rather than because of a quite specific rant of yours on how those Muslims are, and why its only logical that they cant find any jobs. But it's rather transparent.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Nov, 2005 06:00 pm
This report below has a high duh factor for anyone who's picked up on any French hip-hop beyond the smoothness of MC Solaar. But for everyone else here (and who can expect you to have followed French hip-hop), it should be a great pointer into the background of the French riots.

Plus, it lends itself well to a rhetorical question on my part: What's the more obvious parallel here? That to the past rioting by angry young US blacks - or that to bearded fundamentalists out to establish a Caliphate?

In France, Anthems of Alienation
(Washington Post)


Here's my attempt at an executive summary - but do read the full thing:

Quote:
In France, Anthems of Alienation

A couple of young men turned up their car's CD player so that everyone on the block could hear "Bring Pressure." It's a track from "By All Means Necessary," an album by Government From the Zone.

"Zone" is French slang for slum and "Bring Pressure" describes gray, listless Oliviers. High-rise Oliviers, with its glut of New York Yankees caps set among white Arab robes and fast-food eateries serving burgers and kebabs, seems suspended between the Bronx and Algiers. On the disc, Skar raps: "I do not have anything to lose / We are going to put pressure / We're up to make the problems explode."

"By All Means Necessary" was released long before the riots. Like many French rap albums, it was prophetic. Rap has been the burning anthem of France's alienated North African and non-white youths for more than 15 years. The words from a 1990s cut by 113 seem prescient: "There had better not be a police blunder / Or the town will go up / The 'burbs are a time bomb."

Rappers dismiss accusations of incitement. "We're like singing newspapers," said Mohamed Soilihi. "What we say goes on whether we say it or not. So better to listen."

The young men's outlook differs entirely from their parents, who, in the words of one cocaine vendor, "worked until their backs broke for nothing and were happy to do it." Skar: "We don't think like that. We don't take Algeria or Comoros as our point of reference. We compare ourselves to white France."

M'sa Mohamed, a black rapper from Reunion Island, is pessimistic. "The younger kids, they like tough messages. They won't be held back. The next time, France will pretend to be shocked again, but all it has to do is listen to the music. They'll know what's coming."
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Nov, 2005 07:40 pm
It's just a little poorly thought out to accuse a pro-immigrant person of xenophobia.

I'm not saying why they SHOULD be discriminated against.

I'm saying why they ARE.

There are many MANY articles about the racial/religious element of the riots--but they are in papers that we don't use for source material. This doesn't exactly mean they are incorrect--but in some instances, they may be the only ones who think reporting facts trumps trying to stem increased racil/religious strife.

We can, though, declare a "most correct" if these answers show me to be wrong.

Were synagogues--churches desecrated during these riots? Were mosques? Were certain businesses attacked or damaged that would fall in line with Muslim beliefs--such as places where alcohol is served? How prevalent were religious Muslim phrases heard and used at the scene of the riots? What was the tone and content of the internet messages calling for participation...did it have a Muslimized message?

I don't know why you keep trying to isolate Muslim extremism to "bearded fundamentalists". They don't limit themselves like that--you make a mistake to do so. The beards whip up hate--the children take it home to the suburbs.

I'll bring what I've found while out googling.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Nov, 2005 07:55 pm
BBC Story, including hijab's affect on employment.

an excerpt--

To get an idea of the lingering tensions, it is worth looking at what happens to these young Muslims beyond secondary school.

At university level, the law on religious signs does not apply.

Nevertheless Teycir ben Naser, a second-year student at Creteil University near Paris, has opted for a discreet bandana.

The 19-year-old feels the headscarf she wears off campus could become a liability during oral exams.

Not that it would influence examiners, she says, but "they might say things or look at me in a certain way, and that would undermine my confidence".

Veiled ambition

The main challenge, however, will come after university.

"We are studying to be able to work later," Ms ben Naser says. "And we all we know that if you wear a veil all the doors will close."

She says her mother, who has a PhD in philosophy and wears a headscarf, does not have a job as a result.

Sonia Benyahia, a student who wears a headscarf on campus and wants to be a schoolteacher, fears her future could be equally blocked.

"I don't know if I'll be able to take off the scarf, so I think I'll remain a housewife," she says.

Ambitious Muslim women will no doubt enter the French workforce in the coming years.

But many will have to choose between their careers and wearing their religion proudly.
__________________________
...which is what I said. Do you disagree with the Muslim girl and the BBC, as well?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Nov, 2005 12:27 am
Quote:
places where alcohol is served


You have never been to France or continental Europe, have you? :wink:

Even (most) shops, cafés, restaurants run by (obviously) Muslim owners sell/serve alcohol.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Nov, 2005 07:16 am
Lash wrote:
nimh wrote:
Interesting ...

Quote:
Riot coverage 'excessive', says French TV boss

One of France's leading TV news executives has admitted censoring his coverage of the riots in the country for fear of encouraging support for far-right politicians. Jean-Claude Dassier, the director general of the rolling news service TCI, said the prominence given to the rioters on international news networks had been 'excessive' and could even be fanning the flames of the violence.

Dassier said his own channel, which is owned by the private broadcaster TF1, recently decided not to show footage of burning cars.


Interesting when they say it--wrong and racist when I said they did exactly what they now admit they did.

They played it down. Who doubts they ALSO played down the number of rioters who expressed religious reasons for their rioting?


I was thinking something similar Lash, though the phrase used was "prejudiced xenophobia". All I want is honest reporting. I resent the inference that ordinary people can't be trusted with the truth - that unless they are given a sanitised version, they might react badly or even (heaven forbid) vote for someone unacceptable like le Pen.

In a democracy you have to trust the people and that means trusting them with the truth, warts and all.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Nov, 2005 07:49 am
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

In a democracy you have to trust the people and that means trusting them with the truth, warts and all.


I agree. (Obviously you trust the French people more than Her Majesty's government Her Majesty's subjects [and press]. :wink: )
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Nov, 2005 08:15 am
I'm not sure if the French are more trustworthy than the British...our mutual history has never given the opportunity to put it to the test Smile
0 Replies
 
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Nov, 2005 08:18 am
I trust both British and Germans. :wink:
0 Replies
 
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Nov, 2005 08:18 am
May I?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Nov, 2005 08:49 am
We can't hinder that. :wink:


-------------

On Saturday, the French (immigrant) blacks for the first created an unique federation out of the 55 various associations (was covered in all French media [see my response in the other thread] as well as here):
"Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité, Diversité".

I suppose, some don't like this as well. (But I'm not that sure how you will get the acts together to get it in a 'Muslim-ruled' direction. But you'll find some hair in that soup as well, I'm sure.)
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Nov, 2005 10:17 am
Francis wrote:
I trust both British and Germans. :wink:


to do what exactly?
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Nov, 2005 10:27 am
Another good piece of reportage from Molly Moore in the WaPo, if anyone is interested ...:

A Mixed Family Struggles On France's Urban Fringe

To make it easy I'll provide an executive summary of my own making again:

Quote:
A Mixed Family Struggles On France's Urban Fringe

80% of Clichy-sous-Bois is designated a "vulnerable urban zone," the government's classification for its poorest communities. Official government figures show that half of all families are immigrants; unofficial estimates place the numbers higher.

There are no cinemas, no bars or nightclubs, no hospital and no municipal police force. The town youth center is a concrete building with peeling gray paint; the computers that youths are encouraged to use for job hunts were broken.

As immigrant workers moved on to more prosperous lives, the housing projects began filling up with new waves of immigrants - first Arabs, then Africans - each group poorer than the last.

Mohamed Zeriou, 18, is an earnest teenager. His ambition is to become a locksmith. "But it's impossible to get a job," said Zeriou, who has a Moroccan father and French mother. "If I say I live in Clichy-sous-Bois, they won't even call me back."
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Nov, 2005 10:44 am
Lash wrote:
She says her mother, who has a PhD in philosophy and wears a headscarf, does not have a job as a result.

[..]
__________________________
...which is what I said. Do you disagree with the Muslim girl and the BBC, as well?

You seem to have a curious inability to remember what you said.

Discrimination a cause for unemployment of Arabs and Muslims? Yes, absolutely, haven't I been going on about that for eons?

In particular in France? Oh yes. See for example this EurActiv report:

Quote:
Claude Moraes, MEP, pointed out that unemployment among French ethnic minorities was four or five times as high as that in the general population, whereas in the UK, it was only around twice as high. In his view, the insistence in France that all those born in the country should be regarded in the same way led to a complete lack of monitoring or data collection on discrimination in employment and other areas. The UK, however, did have monitoring and positive anti-discrimination policies.

Now, on the other hand, what was it you were saying that I chided as sweeping xenophobe generalisations? Oh yeah. That Muslims are not hired in France because, you know, they demand to pray and have ritual baths five times a day, and refuse to work with people from other religions and with women, whom they are liable to throw stones at, and that 90% of them mutilate their children. "Earned stereotypes" that are valid concerns for employers.

Lash wrote:
...and further down the chain is one of the leading reasons Muslims aggregate in millets, as well as why they aren't hired or accepted. The (earned) stereotype of a worker who "can't follow this job duty", or "that aspect of the job" because of his religion, and he MUST pray five times a day. Does he have to take a ritualistic bath, too, after each prayer? You wanna hire one?? Their religion dictates they cannot accept someone of another religion--how does that work in the workplace? Their (fundamentalist's) women are not allowed to benefit from equal rights--so the men will not subject themselves to secular law. How would you like Abdul throwing rocks at the female working beside him, or OK, maybe just calling her a whore, because of how she's dressed? These are VALID complaints by prospective employers. Can you imagine leading a sensitivity training session with some of these guys. Laughing You saw what happened with something as simple as a headscarf. They will protect their ritualistic mutilation of their daughters--especially more recent immigrants from North Africa and the Middle East. The percentage of girls mutilated there is in the 90th percentile!! It pisses me off. If this were a band of white neo-nazis doing this to their children and wives, you would demand the gov to stop it immediately. Don't think family services will protect these children. They reject secular law--and they can't be allowed to do so.

Now thats not quite what the BBC story is saying/confirming, is it? I've met plenty of muslims in the workplace, and my most benevolent interpretation about this rant of yours that I dared condemn as xenophobe is that you only know them from TV. If you can't see the distinction between what that BBC story is saying and what all you asserted, I can't help you any further I'm afraid.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Nov, 2005 11:28 am
nimh wrote:
Another good piece of reportage from Molly Moore in the WaPo, if anyone is interested ...

To make it easy I'll provide an executive summary of my own making again:

.....


Thanks nimh, had some difficulty with the big foreign words. Molly Moore's piece is evidence for nothing at all except as we say in these parts, the bleeding obvious.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Nov, 2005 01:41 pm
Just as a reminder:

• 5 million inhabitants live in the "social hotspots" ('zones urbaines sensibles' [ZUS]) in France

• 1.4 million inhabitants live in the ZUS in Île-de-France

• There are 754 ZUS in France

• 157 ZUS are in Île-de-France

• 64% of school children in the ZUS are from underprivileged families

• Unemployment in ZUS is 20% vs 10% in the national French average

• 12% of the pupils in ZUS are not of French nationalty

• Clichy-sous-Bois has about 29,000 inhabitants, 38.6% under the age of 20 (in the department, that number is 28%)

• 50% of Clichy-sur-Bois' inhabitants are below 25
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Nov, 2005 03:13 pm
Fundamentalism in French Workplace


Private employers wrestle with expressions of Islam, while study alleges criminal links.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Nov, 2005 03:23 pm
"Sometimes you will have fundamentalist employees, but they do not cause trouble. And sometimes you will have a mix of labor politics and religion that is more about establishing power than anything else."


just thought I would quote this (hope thats not being racist xenophobic or prejudiced)
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Nov, 2005 03:28 pm
Quote:
Executives say pressure groups in supermarkets and other companies advance oppressive ideological agendas: They pressure co-workers to wear religious garb, defy the authority of female managers and demand boycotts of products such as alcohol, pork, Israeli oranges and American brownies, Denece said.


NO AMERICAN BROWNIES FOR YOU!!!

Laughing
0 Replies
 
 

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