Riots in France

georgeob1 wrote:

Apparently you guys believe Bernard is a reincarnation of Massagato.

Of that and a couple of other names.

georgeob1 wrote:

Perhaps I am slow to catch on to such things.

Don't you have an odour-speaker? :wink:

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Don't you have an odour-speaker? :wink:

Evidently mine is not as sensitive as yours. Confused

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georgeob1 wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
You refer to the cruder neighbor writing the nex chapter of history as something of a natural progression. You then write about the cruder neighbor writing the nex chapter of history as something negative, something to be overcome. If it is a natural progression, then why is it negative, and something to be overcome?

You are reading things into my comments that I didn't say.

Whether the process is good or bad depends entirely on your point of view.

I'm not sure about what you mean by referring to this process--I can assume you regard it as a natural one since you didn't object to my reading thereof--as something to be overcome. Would you elaborate?

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With apologies to TS Eliot.

No, I am not Prince Hamlet Massagatto, nor was meant to be;
Am an attendant lord, one that will do
To swell a progress, start a scene or two,
Advise the prince; no doubt, an easy tool,'
Deferential, glad to be of use,
Politic, cautious, meticulous;
Full of high sentence, but a bit obtuse;

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Oh my, Mr. Walter Hinteler--using words like "oudor"--That's a bit like Ad Hominem, isn't it? I am totally disheartened. I always thought the land of Goethe, Beethoven and Thomas Mann prided itself on rational discource.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

I suppose, it's better for me not to reply to some members here anymore - I getn't paid for their education.

But I must admit that after the couple of days I'm here in the USA, I found that most are better educated than some show their "knowledge" here. Even graduates from an Indian Elementary have got a btter education.

Walter you pompous SOB.

Sad to say that there are some on A2K (and in America) who will take your Euro-criticism to heart simply because it sources from outside our borders.

Horseshit is horseshit, no matter how it is spelled.

Think on this: You and other Europeans know more about current events in America than Americans know about current events in Europe. This is not debateable.

One might think that this means that the Euros are somehow superior to the Yanks. Clearly this is Walter's contention.

But it also might mean that that the Yanks really have no reason to care about what is happening in Europe while Europeans, at the mercy of American decisions, have every reason to try and understand American politics.

Does such a contention rely on native arrogance?

Yep. So what?

Those who find themselves on the short end of the American Arrogance stick would (understandably) prefer to characterize Yankee Arrogance as Yankee Stupidity.

Face it Walter, no matter how profound your individual observations, you live in a (at best) second tier country. Whether or not any of us Yankees get to actually influence American public policy, clearly you do not.

If you were British, or even French, you might be able to take comfort in the fact that your ancestors (in the aggregate) wielded a mighty influence on world affairs. But, alas, you are German. Individually, Germans have made incredible contributions to human society but when it comes to the Germans as a whole, the issue is less certain.

Walt Baby, you are, undeniably a smart and eloquent dude. But....you ain't an American.

As a matter of fact you will not be paid if you teach poor ignorant Americans that "getn't" is a word.

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Careful, Finn, you might find that Mr. Walter Hinteler has found that you have an "oudor". Then where would you be? But, fear not, Finn. I have learned that Europeans do not shower every day--water shortages, you know!!!

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Well, Finn, nearly all people I know and all I'm friendly with look at people as as what they are.

I do the same, especially with guys like you and BernardR.

But as a Christian and soicial worker I do believe that there's always some hope for everyone.

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Finn d'Abuzz wrote:

Think on this: You and other Europeans know more about current events in America than Americans know about current events in Europe. This is not debateable.

One might think that this means that the Euros are somehow superior to the Yanks. Clearly this is Walter's contention.

But it also might mean that that the Yanks really have no reason to care about what is happening in Europe while Europeans, at the mercy of American decisions, have every reason to try and understand American politics.

Looks like an easy justification for usual ignorance...

George, remember? This thread is becoming " Disagreeing, just to get a rise out of someone"...

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Francis wrote:

[George, remember? This thread is becoming " Disagreeing, just to get a rise out of someone"...

That... or perhaps just spite and anger. Unfortunate.

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Quote:

If you were British, or even French, you might be able to take comfort in the fact that your ancestors (in the aggregate) wielded a mighty influence on world affairs. But, alas, you are German. Individually, Germans have made incredible contributions to human society but when it comes to the Germans as a whole, the issue is less certain.

I've lived near the PA Dutch for much of my life. German thinking has shaped PA policy. At one point German was nearly chosen as the "Official Language" in PA rather than English.

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Finn d'Abuzz wrote:

Horseshit is horseshit, no matter how it is spelled.

If you were British, or even French, you might be able to take comfort in the fact that your ancestors (in the aggregate) wielded a mighty influence on world affairs. But, alas, you are German. Individually, Germans have made incredible contributions to human society but when it comes to the Germans as a whole, the issue is less certain.
.

I agree with your first statement, and count the second as an excellent example of it.

I think you should study the history of the late Middle Ages and the entire Modern Era as well (1500 thru the current era). Consider also the Moslem conquests after the 8th century; the Mongols and their struggles with the Moslem world and the Han Chinese; the expansion of Russia, the empires of the Netherlands, Portugual, Spain Britain and France., and throw in a few episodes such as the Mexican war and our conquest of the Philippines. Rather difficult to single any one people out in all of that.

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George Ob1- Your argument concerning the fact that no people should be "singled out" is compelling. However, it is my opinion that Finn was reacting to the superciliousness some of the contributors on these threads such as Francis and Walter Hinteler. Those who have studied History are indeed aware of the contributions of the French and Germans to the world's cultures. They are also cognizant of the asendancy of those countires as leading states in the world a few centuries ago.

I think what Finn( and I) may be reacting to is the repeated tendency of the French and German intellectuals to denigrate the US as a "adolescent" country, who may have great resources but not the deep and lasting cultural history of those countries.

No matter how Francis and Walter Hinteler wish to cut it, the fact is clear.
The USA is the world's predominant country and the leader of the Western world.

I am reminded of a nieghbor who commented on the most beautiful house in the neighborhood which was indeed a splendid palace.

Filled with envy, she commented--Yes, but since it's near the forest, they get bugs in their house.

She knew little about the house. Hinteler and Francis know little about our house. But their envy shows clearly.

Envy is the most deplorable of vices.

I will withdraw or modify my view when I note that Walter and/or Francis have discoverd something good about the USA.

Viewing their past performances, I do not think that will come soon.

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Finn d'Abuzz wrote:

If you were British, or even French, you might be able to take comfort in the fact that your ancestors (in the aggregate) wielded a mighty influence on world affairs. But, alas, you are German. Individually, Germans have made incredible contributions to human society but when it comes to the Germans as a whole, the issue is less certain.
.

Indeed, my ancestors made now contribution at all to world history.

Locally, one of my great-great .... granfathers was honorably mention (as Monsieur Hinteler) when getting back the city of Muenster out of the hands of some "enemies". And in science, a greatuncle found something - in early 20th century quite important - about the absorptions of vapours through charcoal ("Schmidt-Hinteler-effect").

But as you correctly said, this issue is less certain than that of the "Finn d'Abuzz's".

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Your lack of responsiveness to my charge denotes that your supercilious view of the USA is indeed based on envy.

My ancestor has yours beat hands down. Alexander Hamilton was far more important than anyone from the "cheese" city. You do know who Hamilton was, I hope!

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BernardR wrote:

George Ob1- Your argument concerning the fact that no people should be "singled out" is compelling. However, it is my opinion that Finn was reacting to the superciliousness some of the contributors on these threads such as Francis and Walter Hinteler. .......

I agree -- my argument is compelling.

I believe Walter and Francis generally take a bit more here than they dish out. I agree that Walter made the mistake of trying to respond to you in kind, but with less direct offensiveness. He did it in a second language and I suspect the effect was not quite what he intended. In any case his lapse was trivial compared to your crude insults, and also very small compared to Finn's obviously ill-informed and, frankly stupid statement.

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You may be right, GeorgeOb1. As you are probably aware( I am sure you read some of Turner's thesis on the frontier and the people who inhabited it in the early US and also De Tocqueville's" Democracy in America". Henry Steele Commager, the famous and highly respected US Historian, wrote in his introduction to "Democracy in America" in 1945--

quote

"Many, if not most of the foreigners who wrote about the America, came here with a closed mind,came here not to learn but to confirm preconceived notions"

So then, George Ob1- You may be right, but, as I said, I will wait to extoll the glories of Goethe and Pascal until Francis and Hinteler have sufficient graciousness to discover something good happening in the USA.

Whatever happened to European manners?

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georgeob1 wrote:

Finn d'Abuzz wrote:

Horseshit is horseshit, no matter how it is spelled.

If you were British, or even French, you might be able to take comfort in the fact that your ancestors (in the aggregate) wielded a mighty influence on world affairs. But, alas, you are German. Individually, Germans have made incredible contributions to human society but when it comes to the Germans as a whole, the issue is less certain.
.

I agree with your first statement, and count the second as an excellent example of it.

I think you should study the history of the late Middle Ages and the entire Modern Era as well (1500 thru the current era). Consider also the Moslem conquests after the 8th century; the Mongols and their struggles with the Moslem world and the Han Chinese; the expansion of Russia, the empires of the Netherlands, Portugual, Spain Britain and France., and throw in a few episodes such as the Mexican war and our conquest of the Philippines. Rather difficult to single any one people out in all of that.

Consider yourself one of the "good" Righties.

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BernardR wrote:

quote

"Many, if not most of the foreigners who wrote about the America, came here with a closed mind,came here not to learn but to confirm preconceived notions"

I suspect that statement could be made with some accuracy with respect to travellers everywhere.

BernardR wrote:

So then, George Ob1- You may be right, but, as I said, I will wait to extoll the glories of Goethe and Pascal until Francis and Hinteler have sufficient graciousness to discover something good happening in the USA.

Whatever happened to European manners?

Why is it necessary that they say something nice about the USA? This thread is about the recent riots in France!

It is safe to assume that the mere presence of Francis and Walter on these threads is indicative of some interest in America. I certainly couldn't do nearly as well as either of them on a German or French discussion thread. (Could you?)I have seen criticism on their parts (and many others as well - mostly Americans) of U.S. political and international policies, but that is not the same thing as an expression of personal dislike. I, in turn, have offered quite a lot of criticism of European public attitudes, the political policies of the major European nations, and of the excessively socialistic economic policies of Western European nations, but that doesn't mean I dislike the people themselves or the individual European posters here. A vigorous debate or even disagreement about ideas doesn't require antipathy for the one who disagrees with you, or the casting of insults at them or their culture.

I don't think you have standing to criticize them for their manners.

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BernardR wrote:

No matter how Francis and Walter Hinteler wish to cut it, the fact is clear.
The USA is the world's predominant country and the leader of the Western world.

If you can get rid of your usual partisanship, show me when I said or implied such nonsense...

BernardR wrote:

She knew little about the house. Hinteler and Francis know little about our house. But their envy shows clearly.

Envy is the most deplorable of vices.

I will withdraw or modify my view when I note that Walter and/or Francis have discoverd something good about the USA.

You have not been paying attention to my posts, have you?

If so, you would not be uttering such unappropriated comments.

It seems you are being bothered by foreigners knowledge about your own history, geography, sociology...

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Riots in France

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