Riots in France

There haven't been much traffic jams today: people knew in advance about what happens.

So, it's still (at this moment) fairly calm: policemen are trying not to use too much force against the some dozens rioters still .... now it gets a bit harsher ...

But the tv pictures show clearly: these persons are mostly violent youth, not really the student or union demonstrators. And quite often brawls erupt between these two groups ... like now again ...

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France is the spoiled child of Europe.

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georgeob1 wrote:

France is the spoiled child of Europe.

With "Europe" you mean here exactly what?

And why is it so? (Not because I can watch live coverage, I suppose.)

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

With "Europe" you mean here exactly what?

Just the conventional meaning - Portugual to Finland, France to Russia' and Norway to Bulgaria.. I suppose one could include the UK, but they have long been partly immune from the follies and tragedies of continental Europe.

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And why is it so? (Not because I can watch live coverage, I suppose.)

Not entirely sure I get your meaning here., but, assuming yiou want my reasons - they have much to do with the very apt anecdotes Lord Ellpus offered us a couple of pages back. A priviledged youthful generation that is looking for a continuation of the security of childhood, but this time with the state as their surrogate parent; a somewhat disenfranchised young generation of the children of North African inmmigrants who apparently despise the state and feel no sympathy with the more priviledged members of their generation; a government with slightly more venality than other democratic governments; and a nation more interested in the continuation of its popular illusions than in dealing with the world as it is and themselves as they really are.

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georgeob1 wrote:

.. I suppose one could include the UK, but they have long been partly immune from the follies and tragedies of continental Europe.

Some might argue that continental Europe has been insulated from the follies and tragedies of island Britain.

But not me actually because I agree with you George. Although out of tragedies and follies came the Renaissance, Reformation, Art, Science, Architecture, Commerce and everything else that Europe gave America to make it a half way decent civilised society. Smile

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Thanks, George.

Some see it a bit differently here since we got labour laws - as they exist now - since the early '20s of last century.

And before, we got the "Bürgerliches Gesetzbuch" ('German Civil Code') (with the creation of the united German Reich in 1871/2), where Labour Law was totally included.

Besdies that, I doubt that the student demonstrations as well as those from the unions are mainly led by "a somewhat disenfranchised young generation of the children of North African inmmigrants" - polls show different.

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Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

Some might argue that continental Europe has been insulated from the follies and tragedies of island Britain.

This is a photo from the main demonstration in London this afternoon:

Result: 500,000 puplis in 85% of London schools were caught in the strike since their schools were closed as were dozens of libraries, local councils, no waste collection etc. etc. etc.

The reason is of course very different - the UK isn't France as LordE nicely pointed at:
government wants to scrap "Rule of 85", which allows a local government employee to retire at 60 without any detriment to their pension if their years of service and age add up to 85 or more.

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Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

Some might argue that continental Europe has been insulated from the follies and tragedies of island Britain.

But not me actually because I agree with you George. Although out of tragedies and follies came the Renaissance, Reformation, Art, Science, Architecture, Commerce and everything else that Europe gave America to make it a half way decent civilised society.

This rare agreement is noted with pleasure on my part. Thanks also for the left-handed ".. half way decent civilized society" bit. In fact I agree with the assessment. By continental European standards we are indeed half way decent and civilized. We are also competitice and alive, welcoming to new cultural infusions, and willing (though often reluctantly) to deal with the challenges life throws our way.

By the way, there were two somewhat distinct European Enlightenments - one in Continental Europe, centered in France; the other in the UK, mostly populated by intellectual Scotsmen. Time has shown us that the latter produced far more of lasting value. It, not the continental version, was the inspiration of the American revolutionaries.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

Thanks, George.

Some see it a bit differently here since we got labour laws - as they exist now - since the early '20s of last century.

And before, we got the "Bürgerliches Gesetzbuch" ('German Civil Code') (with the creation of the united German Reich in 1871/2), where Labour Law was totally included.

Besdies that, I doubt that the student demonstrations as well as those from the unions are mainly led by "a somewhat disenfranchised young generation of the children of North African inmmigrants" - polls show different.

The German social welfare system goes back to the late 19th century. My impression is that the current government in Germany is beginning to deal with the unsustainable excesses that have grown in the system and, in particular, to liberalize the laws reglating emploument. So far this has been done with far less (or at least more civilized) resistence in Germany than in France. Even Germans are subject to the enervating effects of Socialism - as the Ossi's have demonstrated.

You have seriously mischaracterized my identification of the principal actors in the current troubles in France. I noted two distinct youtd groups and could also add the uniond and the general public which tolerates the others.

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georgeob1 wrote:

By the way, there were two somewhat distinct European Enlightenments - one in Continental Europe, centered in France; the other in the UK, mostly populated by intellectual Scotsmen. Time has shown us that the latter produced far more of lasting value. It, not the continental version, was the inspiration of the American revolutionaries.

Well, besides the fact that history sees the number/locations slightly different, the result(s) of the Enlightment can't only to be focused in the " inspiration of the American revolutionaries".

(And they really result just in the ideas of intellectual Scotsmen?)

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Well both versions of the Enlightenment arose from the Renaissance, which really begam in Italy. I acknowledge the many German contributions to both the Renaissance and the continental Enlightemnment that followed, but dispute your claim that the primarily French thinkers of the 18th century were the antecedants of the British and Scots.

The American revolution preceded the French one, and produced a far better result for its people -- a lasting and adaptive democracy, compared to the Terror, Napoleon and the Bourbons (again).

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Okay.

(Jefferson and Franklin both spent time in France - a natural ally because it was a traditional enemy of England - but obviously could avert any influence of the French Enlightenment.
And the God who underwrites the concept of equality in the Declaration of Independence is of course not the same deist God Rousseau worshipped but the Englis/Scottish God supporting and defending monarchies.)

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It is true that both Jefferson and Frankin spent a great deal of time in France. Moreover Jefferson was indeed - as you infer - infused with many elements of the thinking of the French thinkers of the time, and even deluded a bit about the meerits of the French Revolution. Franklin was quite another matter. He was a very practical-minded individual, very much in the British mold of 'muddling through'. and an advocate of limited Federal government. In my view Jefferson is much overrated as a political thinker - certainly his own actions in his private life did not reflect his written views so lovingly quoted by left wing politicians. In my view Franklin's contributions to our evolving democracy were far far greater than those of Jefferson. In the main the American Revolution was about the primacy of local government; limiting the powers of government at all levels. and individual & property rights.

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DeV is still holding. <cheers>

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Lash wrote:

DeV is still holding. <cheers>

I'd thought, you were more a Sarkozy fan? :wink:

Yes, he's still "inflexible" - and Sarkozy becomes now one of his predominat crtics of any importance (since he's in the cabinet, interior minister, from the same party and a thought-of-presidental-candidate).

(Yesterday, Villepin once again offered to negotiate on some of the more controversial terms of the new law, but refused to withdraw it altogether. The number two in the government, the Interior minister, Nicolas Sarkozy, distanced himself from M Villepin on Monday night, calling for the law to be "placed in abeyance" during negotiations with unions and students.)

This frontpage of today's "Le Parien" sums everything up:

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From today's Independent re the new law:

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Student unions say that the law treats the young as a "disposable" commodity. Unions complain that it drives a wedge in to decades of accumulated legal protections of employment. The law has also become a symbol of what many on the French left see - or like to see - as wicked, anti-social, "ultra-capitalist" influences from the US and Britain.

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Lord Ellpus wrote:

Look at France's work relations today, and you see Britain in the 70's.

Yesterday's action by local government workers over plans to raise their retirement age from 60 to 65 was the biggest industrial action since the general strike of 1926, more than a million employees walked out.

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I can like a thing a person does without liking everything they do. I think DeV has taken the best stand for France's future. I think his holding firm on it is commendable.

I did like some things about Sarkozy, but his political sidestep re the CPE is deplorable.

What DeV is doing, IMO, ranks with Sharon's unpopular steps when he believed returning Palestinian land was the best thing for Israel's future. It is nothing but pure statesmanship, and he will likely pay for it.

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At least, it's laudable that you name one of the most anti-American French politicans to show "pure statesmanship".

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It's interesting that you label him anti-American.

But, as with American politicians: I give credit where it is due.

Love to see everyone else do the same.

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Riots in France

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