You Thought It Couldn't Get Worse?

Oh no dafdaf! Don't please bring up "burning the flag"!!!! That is a huge political and emotional issue for many of the "patriots" of the world! I would not EVEN want to whisper my opinion of that in a public forum....

sssshhhhhhh!

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hehe well it's just something I do not understand. Anyone is welcome to burn the Union Jack (British flag) and i wouldn't care less. In fact you could burn a bible or a picture of me and i wouldn't bat an eyelid.

An act of terrorism is one that instills terror or destruction, not the symbolism of it surely?

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As mentioned before in this thread, just the idea that this bill has made it to a state senate building, and is being debated is a bit chilling.

..... Here in Oregon there is no chance that this will pass: a sample of public reation

Lars Larson, mentioned above, is a radio-hack-Rush-Limbaugh wanna be; who enjoys pulling catchy phrases out of his.....er...out of the air to make dramatic statements....... At no time was any ambulance blocked, delayed, or disturbed, just another mega-cudos moment for Lars.

Unfortunately windows were broken in the earlier protests at the start of the war, but stores were never looted.

The first thing I thought about when I heard about this bill was a moment after the last November elections and a Republican, (sorry don't remember who) was commenting on the Republican majority freshly achieved. Paraphrasing, he said:" Well, we got two years now to make things work our way, I hope we don't blow it."

I think the blowing is beginning.

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flatted 5th - nice post and one I feel better about, hearing from an Oregonian! If it were only Lars to think about it would be one thing, but it is the Majority leader Republican who proposed and worded the bill. If it does not pass in Oregon, there are still all the myriad of city governments, state and so forth. Still the present US Supreme Court does not inspire confidence in me that a law like this if passed could be 'struck down'. In the meantime. there will be many jailed as terrorists and that could just be put toward the present federal crime of being a suspect or of having given money to a group later deemed supportive of terrorism.

I will return with a quote and link to an article about Mike Hawash, being held in such a case...

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Example of Patriot Act enforcement - please read closely the exact phrasings used by the agents and the Oregonian:

Quote:

http://rittenhouse.blogspot.com/

Monday, March 31, 2003

IT'S EVENING IN AMERICA
Brought to You by the Patriot Act
Excerpts from "FBI, Joint Terrorism Agents Search Home in Hillsboro," by Mark Larabee and Les Zaitz, The Oregonian, March 21:

A software designer was being held Thursday as a material witness in a terrorism investigation after FBI agents searched his Hillsboro home and his office at Intel.

According to neighbors and co-workers, Maher Mofeid Hawash, 38, was the target of Thursday's searches by the FBI's Joint Terrorism Task Force.

Hawash was booked into the Multnomah County Detention Center on Thursday afternoon and put on a "material witness hold" at the request of the U.S. Marshal's Service, a sheriff's department spokesman said. A material witness designation allows the government to hold someone in order to compel testimony.

The FBI issued a short statement Thursday morning saying that in an "ongoing investigation," the Joint Terrorism Task Force had executed four federal search warrants in the Hillsboro area and that the Hillsboro Police Department assisted in the searches.

Prosecutors and investigators refused to say who the target of their search was or what they were looking for. The federal search warrants filed in the case are sealed, meaning the information in them is secret. Asked whether anyone was taken into custody as a result of the searches, officials said they could not answer the question because of a court order.
"A software designer." "Agents searchedhis office at Intel." Maher Mofeid Hawash.

It all sounds sosinister, doesn't it?

The Oregonian seems to be happy to play along: "Hawash, who also goes by the name 'Mike'" was how Larabee and Zaitz framed that nugget. "Goes by the name"? You mean, like an alias? Or something more ordinary, like maybe a nickname? Or something akin to the way my grandfather was called Lou, even though his parents named him Lucido?

Oh, and The Oregonian's report left out one very important fact: Mr. Hawash is a citizen of the United States. He's as American as, well, even Michelle Malkin and her Filipino immigrant parents.

Details are sketchy -- what with the grotesquely misnamed Patriot Act and all -- but the trigger behind the FBI's raid, which included the obligatory assault rifles, apparently was contributions Hawash made to an organization called the Global Relief Foundation. Hawash says he believed he was donating to a humanitarian organization; the FBI says the group provided funds for terrorist activities.

Friends of Hawash, currently detained incommunicado at in the Sheridan (Ore.) Federal Prison, have launched a web site, "Free Mike Hawash," where you can find more information about the matter and a defense fund they have established.

"but the trigger behind the FBI's raid, which included the obligatory assault rifles, apparently was contributions Hawash made to an organization called the Global Relief Foundation. Hawash says he believed he was donating to a humanitarian organization; the FBI says the group provided funds for terrorist activities.

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Quit calling it "patriotism"! It's rabid nationalism, pure and simple. It's gotten the world into trouble, cyclically, and i-t'-s b-a-c-k...

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Is it time to "Charge the Bastille" yet?

Am I the only one who thinks this Administration just may be responsible for the second Civil War ?

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No I don't think this administration is going to be responsable for a second civil war. But it is resposible for a lot of discontent,... world wide.

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Well, hi Think.

Charging the bastille may work - except nobody in the admin speaks anything but pure Ammurican. That is the patriotic way.

And then, of course, they used wagons, relying on horse power rather than oil. And "Allons enfants" somehow has a different ring from "let's go, kids.

And not a civil war - a revolution. Now that may be a consideration.

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Welcome, Think! I don't believe you're wrong. It won't be blunderbusses and blue vs. grey, but the war is already underway in many respects. One sees it in the anger and hatred.

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cobalt wrote:

Example of Patriot Act enforcement - please read closely the exact phrasings used by the agents and the Oregonian:

Quote:
http://rittenhouse.blogspot.com/

Monday, March 31, 2003

IT'S EVENING IN AMERICA
Brought to You by the Patriot Act
Excerpts from "FBI, Joint Terrorism Agents Search Home in Hillsboro," by Mark Larabee and Les Zaitz, The Oregonian, March 21:

A software designer was being held Thursday as a material witness in a terrorism investigation after FBI agents searched his Hillsboro home and his office at Intel.

According to neighbors and co-workers, Maher Mofeid Hawash, 38, was the target of Thursday's searches by the FBI's Joint Terrorism Task Force.

Hawash was booked into the Multnomah County Detention Center on Thursday afternoon and put on a "material witness hold" at the request of the U.S. Marshal's Service, a sheriff's department spokesman said. A material witness designation allows the government to hold someone in order to compel testimony.

The FBI issued a short statement Thursday morning saying that in an "ongoing investigation," the Joint Terrorism Task Force had executed four federal search warrants in the Hillsboro area and that the Hillsboro Police Department assisted in the searches.

Prosecutors and investigators refused to say who the target of their search was or what they were looking for. The federal search warrants filed in the case are sealed, meaning the information in them is secret. Asked whether anyone was taken into custody as a result of the searches, officials said they could not answer the question because of a court order.
"A software designer." "Agents searchedhis office at Intel." Maher Mofeid Hawash.

It all sounds sosinister, doesn't it?

The Oregonian seems to be happy to play along: "Hawash, who also goes by the name 'Mike'" was how Larabee and Zaitz framed that nugget. "Goes by the name"? You mean, like an alias? Or something more ordinary, like maybe a nickname? Or something akin to the way my grandfather was called Lou, even though his parents named him Lucido?

Oh, and The Oregonian's report left out one very important fact: Mr. Hawash is a citizen of the United States. He's as American as, well, even Michelle Malkin and her Filipino immigrant parents.

Details are sketchy -- what with the grotesquely misnamed Patriot Act and all -- but the trigger behind the FBI's raid, which included the obligatory assault rifles, apparently was contributions Hawash made to an organization called the Global Relief Foundation. Hawash says he believed he was donating to a humanitarian organization; the FBI says the group provided funds for terrorist activities.

Friends of Hawash, currently detained incommunicado at in the Sheridan (Ore.) Federal Prison, have launched a web site, "Free Mike Hawash," where you can find more information about the matter and a defense fund they have established.

"but the trigger behind the FBI's raid, which included the obligatory assault rifles, apparently was contributions Hawash made to an organization called the Global Relief Foundation. Hawash says he believed he was donating to a humanitarian organization; the FBI says the group provided funds for terrorist activities.

Thanks for posting this Cobalt, This case is not getting the attention it deserves and the detainment of Hawash while the world is in war mode is anything but coincidence. His family is forbidden to see or talk to him.

The other suspected reason given for this besides his donation to the Global Relief Foundation, are the feds thinking that Hawash is either connected to, or has information about the "Portland6", a group that was indicted on charges of providing aid to al Qaeda, soon after 9/11.
http://www.counterpunch.org/stclair03192003.html

Information support site forMike Hawash : http://www.freemikehawash.org

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dafdaf wrote:

hehe well it's just something I do not understand. Anyone is welcome to burn the Union Jack (British flag) and i wouldn't care less. In fact you could burn a bible or a picture of me and i wouldn't bat an eyelid.

An act of terrorism is one that instills terror or destruction, not the symbolism of it surely?

I agree - this is a very British perspective, however. I think the extent of our national history and institutions mean that we are left cold by the symbolism of burning/defacing a flag, or even a picture of the Queen.

Many other nations with a shorter history are more likely to use a symbol of national unity (such as a flag) to hold the attention of the people to the common cause.

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Burning photographs of Bush, Rumsfeld, Chaney, Rice, Blair, etc would upset me greatly. Crying or Very sad

Such a waste of toilet paper. Cool

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I think the patriotism card has been played to it's extreme in the US. A couple of trips over there to Seattle and NY last year showed about 50% of the population had a US flag flying on their property. It actually disturbed me that that many people felt so passionately toward what is essentially a mass of land like any other.
Where it gets dangerous is when the population are led into believing or following an entity simply because of it being that entity. Typically that's a worshipper following the order's of the faith. But politics in a democratic country like the US is supposed to be contested (surely that's half the reason of having a democracy at all).

I wonder if this war would have had such support if it were called 'Bushs War on Iraq' and the troops simply referred to as 'Bush men'.

(loved your post JW)

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dafdaf<

You hit the nail on the head; this is indeed Bush's war. It had become a bloody obsession with him before the first missiles were fired.

Now that the denouement of "Bush's Iraq War" is a "given," I would guess that Dubya will be very nervous because an "enemy," such as Sadaam, is no longer in place and that he (Dubya) will find another person who is "evil," maybe in Syria, and go after him.

Dubya cannot let the United States return to normal for fear that the citizens might see just how shallow both he and his presidency are. Rolling Eyes

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I think the world accepted the attack on Afghanistan as border-line acceptable due to the 9/11 (I personally didn't, but that's neither here nor there). The attack on Iraq was very suprising and very controversial - the populous allowed him to do it, but under high protest. If Bush were to attack another country though, I think we would have MASSIVE disagreement.

The Iraq invasion went ahead because Saddam IS an evil man, and his removal is widely considered rightful. (Bush got a bit lucky there though since his initial motives were preemptive self defence and links to Al Queda).

Syria is a dictatorship yes, but not as severe as any other, and certainly not as corrupt as the Saudi Arabian one which the west backs.

Were he then to move onto Syria, or Iran, or any other country I can picture demonstrations five times those we've seen, and possibly even several countries raising arms and standing up to him.

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dafdaf wrote:

If Bush were to attack another country though, I think we would have MASSIVE disagreement.

Never underestimate the power of a right-wing Republican president to be disagreeable.

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You Thought It Couldn't Get Worse?

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