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What is a conservative?

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mysteryman
 
Reply Sun 30 Oct, 2005 05:43 am
I have seen many attacks on the conservatives on here,with some viscious namecalling.

It seems that many people on here consider conservatives "extreme right wing",so tell me,what does that mean?
What exactly defines "extreme right wing"?
Are all conservatives that way?

Give me some examples of why you think conservatives and conservatism are so evil.
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Sturgis
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Oct, 2005 06:17 am
I consider myself to be a moderate conservative. This in a nutshell means I am fiscally conservative, morally conservative and socially liberal. In all these areas though I do have some leeway as to where my beliefs will guide and take me. For the moral factor, I am a gay man who is essentially not pro-gay marriage...clearly a conservative view, I am however a proponent of women having the right to choose with regard to abortion...clearly a more liberal stance. Mind you, this does not mean I am an ardent supporter of abortion..I am not and I do not feel they are right; however I feel the woman is the one who has that choice, it is not the mans choice to make nor should it be that of the government although the government should provide medical care for the procedure.

I am socially more liberal as I see the country needing to do more for those who do not have. It is not simply a matter of people in lower economic levels not trying. Often they have and do but the opportunities are always kept just out of reach.

It is early here and I have things to do so my writing time is constrained; but, I wanted to make at least a feeble attempt to explain where some conservatives are. To a liberal minded person I am Satan incarnate to the conservatives I am....well to them too I am the Devil....seems I lose either way. Call me middle of the road leaning heavily to the right.


(possibly) more later.
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Oct, 2005 08:49 am
Sturgis wrote:
This in a nutshell means I am fiscally conservative, morally conservative and socially liberal..........................

.......... am socially more liberal as I see the country needing to do more for those who do not have.


I see a contradiction here. I too am a fiscal conservative, and social liberal. As such, I do not think that it is the job of the government to create programs (which, after all, comes out of the pockets of taxpayers) to fight poverty. First of all, I don't think that they work, they are full of pork, and, IMO actually perpetuate poverty. (I once worked for such a program, and I know what I am talking about).

The one exception would be for the government to take care of those who are truly incapable of caring for themselves.................the severely disabled, the frail elderly, and people caught in an acute situation not of their own doing, such as those who were displaced by hurricane Katrina.

For the rest, as in the past, I believe that it is the job of religious and non-profit charities to assist people who are having problems "making it" on their own. I think that it is grossly unfair that taxpayers who work hard are obliged to support other people, often to the detriment of their own families.

Socially, I am radically liberal. I think that the government needs to keep its nose out of peoples' business, and not create laws that abridge freedom. Therefore I am against any law that would restrict firearms, criminalize prostitution, drugss and gambling, etc. And of course, I believe that the government has no business telling women what to do with their bodies, so I am obviously, pro-choice.

I think that most people would characterize me as a libertarian.
0 Replies
 
teenyboone
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Oct, 2005 09:33 am
Sturgis wrote:
I consider myself to be a moderate conservative. This in a nutshell means I am fiscally conservative, morally conservative and socially liberal. In all these areas though I do have some leeway as to where my beliefs will guide and take me. For the moral factor, I am a gay man who is essentially not pro-gay marriage...clearly a conservative view, I am however a proponent of women having the right to choose with regard to abortion...clearly a more liberal stance. Mind you, this does not mean I am an ardent supporter of abortion..I am not and I do not feel they are right; however I feel the woman is the one who has that choice, it is not the mans choice to make nor should it be that of the government although the government should provide medical care for the procedure.

I am socially more liberal as I see the country needing to do more for those who do not have. It is not simply a matter of people in lower economic levels not trying. Often they have and do but the opportunities are always kept just out of reach.

It is early here and I have things to do so my writing time is constrained; but, I wanted to make at least a feeble attempt to explain where some conservatives are. To a liberal minded person I am Satan incarnate to the conservatives I am....well to them too I am the Devil....seems I lose either way. Call me middle of the road leaning heavily to the right.


(possibly) more later.

I agree with you! I feel the same way, but I see myself as a progressive liberal, whatever that is. I'm more middle of the road than I thought, I guess! I saw "conservative" as code language, for someone against civil rights, against a woman's right to choose, anti-gay, anti-poor, etc., Am I wrong? If not, then just what IS a conservative? Seems to me, the so-called "conservative movement", came about, due to passage, of the 1965 Civil Rights and voting rights, for Blacks! Many Southern Democrats, changed, from Democrat to Republican. A Democratic President , had been assassinated, a governor, had stood in the door of 2 Universities, Mississippi and Alabama and vowed segregation, forever. Blacks, seeking the right to vote, were beaten and jailed. The bus boycott, of 1955, was the beginning, of the most recent civil rights movement, for equality and justice, in the US. Is this a democracy, for some and not for all? Just what IS this Country?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Oct, 2005 09:46 am
Re: What is a conservative?
mysteryman wrote:
I have seen many attacks on the conservatives on here,with some viscious namecalling.

It seems that many people on here consider conservatives "extreme right wing",so tell me,what does that mean?
What exactly defines "extreme right wing"?
Are all conservatives that way?

Give me some examples of why you think conservatives and conservatism are so evil.


Of course there is a broad range and variety in those Americans who term themselves 'conservative' (the range and variety is still broader if you add in perspective and terminology from other nations, eg England, or if you add the perspective of time...what Eisenhower meant by conservative is not what Bush means in using the same word). The modifier 'extreme' isn't likely to be very helpful unless you settle on some historical norm - it will usually be used as shorthand for 'dangerously nutty' (as we commonly see here or in the equally common partisan smear techniques). To make matters worse, you toss in the term 'evil' in your last question. I defy you or anyone else to write a coherent statement or argument which demonstrates that word to refer to anything except personal preference.

Not all conservatives believe the same things. Not all conservatives are extreme (that's a simple logical point...if all are extreme then none are). And if 'evil' doesn't refer to anything real in the world, then your questions ought to ask about modern american conservatism, about changes in republican party platform statements over time, about changes in actual power held among the 'conservative' elements (eg, in the dem party, there's been a large change over the last thirty years in the power of unions within the party).

One place (among quite a few) to start might be with that portion of the present administration/conservative movement who term themselves 'neoconservatives'. Rejection of internationalism (eg UN, Kyoto, ICBM treaty, Bolton assigned there, etc) is, in light of the history of the republican party, an extremist position. Eisenhower would have rejected it immediately and in fact this ideology was rejected even by Bush Sr. Equally extremist are the neoconservative notions of suppressing any upcoming economic/military power which might rise to context American hegemony. Another is the theory of unilateral and pre-emptive military strikes (obviously, in support of the above as well as other perceived threats). Another extreme idea held by this camp is that it is quite OK for that elite in power (the neoconservative themselves) to lie through their teeth to the American population (the 'noble lie', in neoconservative terminology) because that elite is appropriately educated, sophisticated, virtuous and worthy and the rabble are not up to ruling themselves.

A second camp of ideology easily identifiable in the present republican party and the administration is that of the 'social conservatives'. The Dominionists are the least in tune with tradition (thus the most 'extreme') believing that all legislative and judiciary matters must fall junior to the Holy Scripture. To put this another way, it means the Constitution is a secondary document, and the Bible ought to be the primary document. But again, the range of notions and beliefs held by folks who term themselves Christians or 'social conservatives'in the US is very wide indeed (it's apparent, for example, that Bill Kristol and poppa are secular jews yet they are deeply committed to the idea that virtue needs to be shoved down the throats of citizens who aren't up to being virtuous on their own, a position the Pope and Jerry Falwell also maintain).

Let me make the point that where a particular christian (or Muslim, etc) ideology holds, as in the neoconservative position above, that the citizens themselves are not equipped (through lack of proper sophistication, lack of virtue, or lack of appreciating God and the One True Faith) to make their own decisions regarding their own lives AND regarding their own nation's laws, then you've got the best receipe for justifying the removal of liberties and rights and the rise of totalitarian control.

But for a simple answer to your questions, why not turn to moderate Republicans for their notions of what and who is 'extreme' and why they are consequently of real or potential danger? How about starting with Christine Todd Whitman's views... http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/whitmanqanda.html
0 Replies
 
teenyboone
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Oct, 2005 09:53 am
Phoenix32890 wrote:
Sturgis wrote:
This in a nutshell means I am fiscally conservative, morally conservative and socially liberal..........................

.......... am socially more liberal as I see the country needing to do more for those who do not have.


I see a contradiction here. I too am a fiscal conservative, and social liberal. As such, I do not think that it is the job of the government to create programs (which, after all, comes out of the pockets of taxpayers) to fight poverty. First of all, I don't think that they work, they are full of pork, and, IMO actually perpetuate poverty. (I once worked for such a program, and I know what I am talking about).

The one exception would be for the government to take care of those who are truly incapable of caring for themselves.................the severely disabled, the frail elderly, and people caught in an acute situation not of their own doing, such as those who were displaced by hurricane Katrina.

For the rest, as in the past, I believe that it is the job of religious and non-profit charities to assist people who are having problems "making it" on their own. I think that it is grossly unfair that taxpayers who work hard are obliged to support other people, often to the detriment of their own families.

Socially, I am radically liberal. I think that the government needs to keep its nose out of peoples' business, and not create laws that abridge freedom. Therefore I am against any law that would restrict firearms, criminalize prostitution, drugss and gambling, etc. And of course, I believe that the government has no business telling women what to do with their bodies, so I am obviously, pro-choice.

I think that most people would characterize me as a libertarian.

Know why they don't work? They're set up to fail! Poorly managed, little or no oversight and under scrutinized. Why is it HeadStart worked? Now, the Bush Administration, is cutting the funds, to allow it, to just go away! When you're part of an entitled group, in America's case, the white race and you've always enjoyed privilege, know that the priviledge will ALWAYS be there for YOU, the first time someone comes along, has the same credentials as you and is given precedence over you, whites cry FOUL! Why? One Black, is a whole lot of integration. What happens to the black is, they are srutinized, to the Nth degree! Is it fair? NO! You find yourself, checking and rechecking work, you arrive early and leave late, you dress appropriately and is called a pimp, just for being neat! You try to accept things as they are, but you notice your co-worker isn't scrutinized like YOU! He gets a raise and you're told, maybe next time, when you are more productive! He gets promoted, when he began working AFTER you, is friends with the boss, when you are only spoken to, if he has to! You're not invited to play golf, like your co-worker is. Discrimination? Only if you can prove it! So when you say you worked for an agency, that failed, what could you have done, to make it succeed? Or am I right? Where was the over-seeing authority, who could have made this program, work? Inquiring minds want to know! You are ALWAYS going to have fraud! Just remember an incident, involving Katrina victims, where a guy from Jersey, claimed he was a victim of Katrina, got the $2000 debit card, cash for food and the only victim, he was, was dodging the police, to avoid child support. He was white! If a white man says he is a victim, then the powers that be, thinks he IS! Entitlement! No one checked the man's zip code or nothing. He gave a NJ zip code, as the code in Louisiana, a ficticious address, that if they had checked with Mississippi authorities, would have verified it for them, gave a NJ telephone number, as his number in Mississippi, etc. The man simply walked into the red cross headquarters in Newark, told his tale, got the money and LEFT! Why? He was white! Nuff said! I will NEVER give the lying, scheming Red cross, a penny of my hard earned money, after the 9-11 scandal, they were involved in! Entitlement , is the operative word, here!
0 Replies
 
teenyboone
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Oct, 2005 10:45 am
I always back up what I say.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1486646/posts

You can't make this stuff up! When I get replies from this thread, it says this blog was moved? Is this a restricted thread?
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Oct, 2005 12:45 pm
I suppose I should rephrase the question.

Many on the left have claimed that the "extreme right wing",which is where they seem to place all conservatives,have over the years wanted to...

Force women to have babies,ie end abortion
Abolish Social security
Abolish school lunches
Force old people out of their homes
Force school prayer
Abandon the poor and needy

Now,none of these are ttrue,and I have yet to see any proof of these charges.

What I want to know is why do so many on the left think all Conservatives fit into this category.
Are all Conservatives guilty of wanting to do this?

How do you differentiate conservatives from the "extreme right wing"?
0 Replies
 
Acquiunk
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Oct, 2005 01:08 pm
mysteryman wrote:

Force women to have babies,ie end abortion
I know some people personally who want to do exactly that, and they mostly, at least in conversations, support republican policies

Abolish Social security
I have heard no one argue this but there has been a proposal to privitize it which some economists argue amounts to the same thing

Abolish school lunches
This argument comes mostly from the people who have to eat them

Force old people out of their homes
The city of New London in my home state of Connecticut tried (successfully) to do excaly that and give their peroperty to the Pfizer Corperation.

Force school prayer
This is a very popular position among evangelicals in my area, most of whom are republican

Abandon the poor and needy
The only people I hear complaining about this are republicans who complain they are being accused of it.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Oct, 2005 01:52 pm
mysteryman wrote:
What I want to know is why do so many on the left think all Conservatives fit into this category.

I am not sure that this is the case. If it is, the likely explanation is a common human failing. Most people, conservative or liberal, are inclined to believe that their views are the only ones a decent and well-informed person can hold, and that there are no good reasons for disagreeing with them. Given that there are no good reason, the other side must be stupid, or evil, or both.

The liberal bigotry you have experienced is one side of this medal, but I can tell you from personal experience that this mindset is not specific to any one ideology. I hold views that offend about an equal number of conservatives and liberals. My views haven't changed much over the last 2.5 years, but my avatars on A2K have been Milton Friedman, Paul Krugman, and Antonin Scalia respectively. But because of the way these gentlemen are pidgeon-holed in public opinion, people's reactions to my posts have changed enormously every time I changed my avatar. Or more precisely, the people who don't correspond with me frequently, but run into me casually in these pages, have changed their reaction a lot.

My point is that this wouldn't have happened if they had read the writings of the genlemen on my avatars. Friedman, Krugman, and Scalia have more in common than separates them, and they all stand for a way of thinking that I feel very close to. But pidgeon-holing is easier than reading, so the similarities got blurred and the partisan bickering emphasized. Nothing about this is specific to liberal bickering against conservatives.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Oct, 2005 02:08 pm
Acquiunk, responding to mysteryman, wrote:
Force old people out of their homes
The city of New London in my home state of Connecticut tried (successfully) to do excaly that and give their peroperty to the Pfizer Corperation.

I wouldn't be so sure of this example. Jane Glover, the mayor of New London, is a Democrat. Moreover, it was the judges on the conservative side of the Supreme Court who held the seizure unconstitutional. The ones on the liberal side held it constitutional. Hence in this case, on the face of it, it was liberals, not conservatives, who sold out the old little guys to the big corporation.
0 Replies
 
Acquiunk
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Oct, 2005 03:06 pm
I live about 30 miles from New London and this fight has been going on for some time. While the local government took the heat it was the State, under John Roland a Republican,(who is now in jail for corruption) that was pushing this.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Oct, 2005 03:26 pm
Just out of curiosity: Who was the majority party in Connecticut's state congress at the time it drafted the bill and passed it into law?
0 Replies
 
Acquiunk
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 Oct, 2005 04:05 pm
Thomas wrote:
Just out of curiosity: Who was the majority party in Connecticut's state congress at the time it drafted the bill and passed it into law?


Only the Federal Government has a congress, states have legislatures,. It used to be call the General Court in Connecticut until its legislative and judicial functions were divided after the American Revolution. The eminent domain law is written into the state constitution, (article 1 sec. 11) which was last revised 40 years ago. In theory that revision was a bipartisan effort but it's main thrust was to end the dominance of rural interests in the legislature and make it more "representative" ie urban in its makeup. The taking law has been modified by legislation and various court cases over the years but it's main thrust has been to favor government and developer interests over property rights. The conflict is not Republican verse Democrat but large urban interests against small and rural interests and Republicans and Democrats split equally on that. There are a number of fortune 500 corporations in Connecticut and I have yet to see them disappointed by the Legislature It has been a long simmering issue in this state and the New London incident is probably going to be a turning point. The currant governor, Jodi Rell (a Republican) has called for a moratorium and a review of the law.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Nov, 2005 06:33 am
Re: What is a conservative?
mysteryman wrote:
I have seen many attacks on the conservatives on here,with some viscious namecalling.

It seems that many people on here consider conservatives "extreme right wing",so tell me,what does that mean?
What exactly defines "extreme right wing"?
Are all conservatives that way?

Give me some examples of why you think conservatives and conservatism are so evil.


Unfortunately, the following piece is not available online without a NYRB membership, but you can likely pick up the issue at a Borders or large bookstore in your town. But folks should read this to get perspective on how truly extreme are the legal ideas forwarded by the Bush administration regarding torture, international treaties, and the powers of the President to wage war outside of the influence of Congress.

Quote:
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