homosexuality is not 'unnatural'

Momma, so, again - the gay marriage question. The laws making gay marriage or homosexual acts illegal are enacted with respect in a non-judgmental way? In your opinion.

I'm not necessarily against gay marriage. I really don't have a problem if a gay couple want to get married. I do have a problem with people pressuring, say the Catholic Church for instance, into recognizing gay marriages.

littlek,

I would not presume to tell you that forbidding gay marriages is not judgmental. I would be lying if I did say that.

With my Christian belief, I do not like to see things that are said to be a sin be made legal by man. I think man has it backwards. I think man should follow God's laws and not God following man's laws.

But, just because I believe the act is a sin and I don't believe gay marriage should be legal, does not mean I cannot still respect anyone engaged in homosexuality. Littlek, (I love that moniker by the way), we all do things wrong. So, how can I judge or condemn anyone for what they do? I can't, because as they say in the courts "my hands are not clean."

Then, what is all the fuss about?

LOL. Fuss? Littlek, as long as there is right/wrong, good/evil, etc., there is going to be a fuss. There will always be some that believe something is wrong while others believe it is right and vice versa.

Momma, pardon me, but I've always felt that "Christians" who say Christianity teaches me that you are damned because of your beliefs and way of life, but, nevertheless, because I am a christian I grant you "respect" and leave it to God to damn you for your way of being, are guilty of hypocrisy.
It's a bit like saying "I love you" (because of my virtue) even though you are hateful (because of your sinfulness).

My fuss comment was aimed at JC. And, John Creasy, I promise I'll never pressure a church to marry same sexed couples if you promise to never pressure reps to ban gays from marrying.

I'm confused, momma, you seem to say that enacting laws against homosexuality is judgmental and that you agree with those laws, but that you can't judge or condemn gays.

Sigh.

Anyway, we seem to have strayed off-topic. My

Are christians allowed to judge non-christians?

JLNobody,

I completely understand that statement. I really do.

But JLN, I believe all of us deserve respect no matter what we believe or don't. Jesus tells us that is the way we are to be. I don't believe that Jesus would be gay bashing if He were walking the earth. I do believe He would tell why He says it is wrong in God's eyes and He would let the decision lie with each individual, just as He always does.

I can only tell you what I believe God says in the Bible. I can't add to it and I won't take away from it.

I cannot and for the fact of the matter, no one else can either, tell you whether you are condemned or not. God and God alone knows the hearts of each of us.

Momma, I don't want to pick on you--you DO say many reasonable things--but should know that your comment-- "With my Christian belief, I do not like to see things that are said to be a sin be made legal by man. I think man has it backwards. I think man should follow God's laws and not God following man's laws"--sounds very much like what militant theocratic Muslims are saying.

Momma says "...and God alone knows the hearts of each of us." Since I know what's in my heart I am my own God. I KNEW it!

Momma, you keep saying you respect everyone, but then you say that homosexuality is a sin - calling someone a sinner doesn't sound respectful. Thinking it is your own business, but posting the like in public makes you disrespectful towards gays. I see lots of hypocrisy of the type JL mentioned.

JLNobody,

I don't feel picked on so don't worry. You are being very respectful and civil with your questions and I do not mind answering them.

There is a difference between discernment and judgement. Judging encompasses discernment and then condemnation. Discernment is merely determining whether something follows God's law or not. So, no fear here. I know I am not to judge, thereby condemning, anyone. But, we all use discernment everyday to decide what is wrong and right for us. We stand up for what we feel is right and we fight against what we feel is wrong. But, we are never to kill in God's name.

So, to try to tie back into the original topic..... (I can only try!): why do we need to be splitting hairs over whether homosexuality is 'natural' or not, genetic or not? We are doing this because the the answer is at the heart of the arguement (why this is te baisis of the arguement I am not really sure) about whether gay sex, gay marriage, etc should be legal or not.

Since we only have vague evidence for genetic sexuality, these who want to legislate against gays won't accept it.

Since we have vague evidence for genetic sexuality, those who want to protect gay rights use it for their legal basis.

I don't see why knowing the answer is of any value anyway. Citizens shouldn't be legislated against, minorities rights should be protected. People should support their fellow americans...... who cares what one's genes say.

littlek,

LOL. Good point. But, since I believe everyone sins, I am not pointing out any particular person or group here. We all sin. We all do things wrong. So littlek, when I say we all sin, I am one of those sinners also.

it's a deal :wink:

<shaking JC's hand>

I'm sorry, momma, but I feel like your last post is a bit of a cop out. No one is trying to enact legislation, I'm guessing, against your sins..... And, if a gay man who isn't christian isn't sinning in his own mind, no matter what your god or the bible says.

littlek,

Ok, can you explain that further? I don't think it's a cop out. I cannot judge anyone. I am sure there are things others do that you feel are wrong but to them they are right? This is no different.

No two people anywhere at anytime believe 100% of the exact same thing 100% of the time. So, why should I condemn anyone? I can say, yes, that behavior is a sin in my opinion, in God's eyes, etc., without condemning that person. If I condemn anyone for something they are doing wrong (IMO just for the sake of argument) I am then condemning myself.

Marriage is a human, not a divine or sacred, institution. If one needs proof that such is the case, one need look no farther than the high rate of marital infidelity and the over 50% divorce rate. That being the case, why would the religious community have anything to say about whether two people of the same sex have a legal marriage? Their churches wouldn't be forced to perform the ceremonies, their churches wouldn't be forced to recognise such marriages as Godly--legalizing same-sex marriage only means that the religious community cannot force its religious beliefs on those who do not share those beliefs.

True Mills, but would you really expect a church of any kind which teaches of Jesus and the laws God has given man to not be involved? If so, why? To a Christian, God's law is above man's law. So, if man's law conflicts with God's law, then Christians (and others) will fight to keep it from becoming ok in man's law.