Why does the christian cross defraud?

Momma Angel wrote:

Frank,

It would be nice if you would actually acknowledge that not all Christians are as you appear to paint them. Yes, the Religious Right in the media are a problem, but they are not EVERY Christian.

It would be even nicer if you learned to read, MA.

If you did...you would see that I do not "appear to paint" ALL Christians in any way....good or bad.

There are good, decent, honest, ethical, reasonable, logical Christians...and there are the pieces of shyt....

...just as there are good, decent, honest, ethical, reasonable, logical agnostics and atheists...and Muslims, Hindus, etc....and there are some who are pieces of shyt.

And I have "acknowledged" all of that many, many times both here in A2K and over in Abuzz.

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neologist wrote:

Frank. What is it that you think prevents the world from adopting Jesus' 'philosophy'?

Er, guess. Sorry

"Think" works for me, Neo...as well as "guess."

And to be honest, right now...rather than worrying about "the world"... I would settle for some of the so-called "American conservative Christians" to adopt the philosophy of Jesus...which, it seems to me, is damn near inimical to the general tone and agenda of the American conservative movenment.

Why they don't????

Because Jesus taught that "Hooray for me, fuk you" was not the way of the ethical, honest, reasonable, loving kind of person he thought we all should be....

...and "Hooray for me, fuk you" is damn near the hallmark of the American conservative movement.

That is part of the reason why.

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jstark wrote:

As for it being ripped off from the Pagans, well, the Pagans took all the cool symbols early on.

Historical, the Roman's did like to nail people to crosses. they are easy to set up and take down and you can line them up in neat little rows. Not so sure about trees.

The pagans ripped off the symbols from God who is THE WORD... The pagans created a symbol of the sun and worshiped it as God but God created the sun.

The problem is clouding the face of God with the symbols until the symbols become God instead of the thing that created them.

Also it is much easier to cut a tree than to fashion a cross.

The cross is so "Hollywood"...

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Momma Angel wrote:

Scott,

I, for one Christian, do not worship the cross. I worship the Lord Jesus Christ who was crucified on it.

Could you tell me how you think people worship the cross and not the Saviour? I have heard people say that Christians also worship the Bible and not God. The cross, the Bible, etc., are all parts of God and the plan of salvation. I am not understanding how you feel the focus is not on that and is instead on the cross for some Christians.

PLEASE NOTE i said I have never met a Christian who worships the cross except for Catholics.

And the bible is not part of GOD.
THe cross has nothing to do with salvation.
The bible has nothing to do with salvation either.

Accepting the truth of the death burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ in your place has everything to do with Salvation though.
Deny at your own risk. (this is to everyone not just MA).
Push at your own risk. (this is to everyone not just MA).

O NEO
JESUS IS JEHOVAH.

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Scott,

How can you say that the Bible has nothing to do with salvation? Shocked

The Bible is the Word of God. We are to read it and study it and learn how to be.

Yes salvation is a free gift given by God but we still have to do our part.

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Scott777ab wrote:

Momma Angel wrote:
Scott,

I, for one Christian, do not worship the cross. I worship the Lord Jesus Christ who was crucified on it.

Could you tell me how you think people worship the cross and not the Saviour? I have heard people say that Christians also worship the Bible and not God. The cross, the Bible, etc., are all parts of God and the plan of salvation. I am not understanding how you feel the focus is not on that and is instead on the cross for some Christians.

PLEASE NOTE i said I have never met a Christian who worships the cross except for Catholics.

And the bible is not part of GOD.
THe cross has nothing to do with salvation.
The bible has nothing to do with salvation either.

Accepting the truth of the death burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ in your place has everything to do with Salvation though.
Deny at your own risk. (this is to everyone not just MA).
Push at your own risk. (this is to everyone not just MA).

O NEO
JESUS IS JEHOVAH.

And of course, this may all be nothing more than superstitious claptrap.

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Lemme ask you something Frank Apisa-
If you became aware of someone you know(and just for the sake of this question, let's say you like the person), that had "bought into" someones line of poseletyzing... say, Christian, just fr'instance-
How do you think you would react...

Would your first reaction be to make sure you told the person not to believe the hype? or...
Would you leave it to the person to decide for him/herself, because you practice "to each, their own"? or....

Would any of your reaction depend on what "buying into" the religious line had meant to this person's life?

In other words, would you react any differently whether you perceived the person's "getting religion" as elevating his/her life, or hurting it?

I'm asking to try to understand your motives for some of what you say....

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Frank Apisa wrote:

neologist wrote:
Frank. What is it that you think prevents the world from adopting Jesus' 'philosophy'?

Er, guess. Sorry

"Think" works for me, Neo...as well as "guess."

And to be honest, right now...rather than worrying about "the world"... I would settle for some of the so-called "American conservative Christians" to adopt the philosophy of Jesus...which, it seems to me, is damn near inimical to the general tone and agenda of the American conservative movenment.

Why they don't????

Because Jesus taught that "Hooray for me, fuk you" was not the way of the ethical, honest, reasonable, loving kind of person he thought we all should be....

...and "Hooray for me, fuk you" is damn near the hallmark of the American conservative movement.

That is part of the reason why.

I think 'Hooray for me, fuk you' can be described as the logo of MANY, MANY parties all over the world, Frank. Certainly not just for American conservative Christians.

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snood wrote:

Lemme ask you something Frank Apisa-
If you became aware of someone you know(and just for the sake of this question, let's say you like the person), that had "bought into" someones line of poseletyzing... say, Christian, just fr'instance-
How do you think you would react...

Would your first reaction be to make sure you told the person not to believe the hype? or...
Would you leave it to the person to decide for him/herself, because you practice "to each, their own"? or....

Would any of your reaction depend on what "buying into" the religious line had meant to this person's life?

In other words, would you react any differently whether you perceived the person's "getting religion" as elevating his/her life, or hurting it?

I'm asking to try to understand your motives for some of what you say....

Best way to put this, Snood...and a way I think you and others might understand...

...is to compare why I say many of the things I say in this area to the zeal with which many religious missionaries deliver the message they see as important.

I honestly HONESTLY see religion as a net negative for society...and for each individual engaging in it...and I feel it incumbant upon me to do everything possible to shake anyone I see engaging in it...and try (as I see it) to wake them up.

This is NOT to get them to reject religion...but rather TO QUESTION IT...just as I attempt to get atheists to question their "devotion" to their "there can be no gods" guesses.

Keep in mind that I am not "at war" with religion as much as I am at war with the notion that we can know or make reasonable guesses about the ultimate REALITY.

As for the last part of your question...well...just about everyone I know who is "religious" (even people who are obviously hypocritical, which I acknowledge many are NOT)...suggest that "religion" somehow "elevates" their life.

I disregard that!

I am focused on getting anyone I can to question BELIEFS of any and all kinds....both for and against the existence of gods.

I don't worry about that aspect of this issue here in a discussion forum. Everyone here is free to listen to or reject any considerations anyone brings to these issues.

As an aside...I seldom engage in this kind of thing outside of the forums. I would not go out of my way to engage some individual not actively seeking to discuss these kinds of issues out in a supermarket or at a ball game. I might do it (AND HAVE) with missionaries who ring my doorbell.

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najmelliw wrote:

I think 'Hooray for me, fuk you' can be described as the logo of MANY, MANY parties all over the world, Frank. Certainly not just for American conservative Christians.

Not sure of your point????

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It seemed to me that you especially tried to link that motto to American conservative Christians, and I thought that was not really correct. Most people feel the need to stand out and or be better (consciously or subconsciously) then their fellow men. That's why I answered your post.

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najmelliw wrote:

It seemed to me that you especially tried to link that motto to American conservative Christians, and I thought that was not really correct. Most people feel the need to stand out and or be better (consciously or subconsciously) then their fellow men. That's why I answered your post.

I specifically linked it to American conservatives who identify themselves as "Christians."

It is my opinion (I know not shared by all)...that there is almost nothing more hypocritical than a person identifying him/herself as a Christian...and then espousing a political philosophy so completely encumbered by the "hooray for me, fuk you" mentality.

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Quote:

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

Mein Kampf

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I often wonder if people ever tire of trying to bring in Hitler to a religious conversation? Rolling Eyes

The whole point of freedom of religion is that everyone is free to practice the religion of their choosing. Now, I don't agree with a lot of religions or their practices but I'm not out there railing against them or the people practicing them.

If everyone in the world would just let everyone alone and stop trying to tell everyone else what they SHOULD or SHOULDN'T be or do I think we'd all be better off.

I have no problem discussing religion, whether it be my religion of choice or theirs. The problem I do have is when someone, anyone starts telling the other how bad their religion is or how it is bad for society.

When I discuss Christianity I do my best to just point out why I believe in it and try to show that belief through my actions.

Live and let live I say.

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I am not saying anything bad, the point was anyone and everyone in the past has used religion for motives rather than good.

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And I don't think anyone can deny that fact, BDV. It's just time (IMO) that we start focusing on the today and not yesterday and on ourselves individually instead of any particular group.

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Momma Angel wrote:

I often wonder if people ever tire of trying to bring in Hitler to a religious conversation?

The whole point of freedom of religion is that everyone is free to practice the religion of their choosing. Now, I don't agree with a lot of religions or their practices but I'm not out there railing against them or the people practicing them.

If everyone in the world would just let everyone alone and stop trying to tell everyone else what they SHOULD or SHOULDN'T be or do I think we'd all be better off.

But that is exactly what you are doing here, MA...telling people what they should be doing and what they souldn't be doing. And like everyone else...you are telling people that they should be doing what you want them to do.

Quote:

I have no problem discussing religion, whether it be my religion of choice or theirs. The problem I do have is when someone, anyone starts telling the other how bad their religion is or how it is bad for society.

And that is what you are doing here also.

It is, in your mind, perfectly okay for you to post suggesting that the world is better off with religion...but you rail against those of us who see it for the great evil it is.

Why do your rules not apply to you?

Quote:

When I discuss Christianity I do my best to just point out why I believe in it and try to show that belief through my actions.

Live and let live I say. [/color]

Those certainly are your words. You actions do NOT back them up anywhere near as much as you think they do.

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Frank,

When I speak I speak for myself. I am not telling anyone that they actually SHOULD do as I say or do. I am giving my opinion just as you are giving yours. When anger and harsh words enter into any discussion it is no longer a discussion. It becomes a dictate. What I say here applies to me and my life. I share those opinions but certainly do not expect anyone to adapt them for themselves.

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BDV wrote:

Quote:
"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

Mein Kampf

Jesus was pure semetic...

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Why does the christian cross defraud?

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