Why does the christian cross defraud?

neologist wrote:

Diane wrote:
I think religions have always appropriated symbols; just as Christian churches built on top of older pagan churches, purposely obliterating the old, but claiming many of the old practices and symbols as their own.
All this would be really peachy were it not for the fact that God strictly prohibited such practices. (Exodus 20:4,5; 1Corinthians 10:20)

You reacted with this to Merry Andrew as well.
Your quote would matter if one cared what was said in 1Corinthians...
I don't see why it works as an argument - it is just a statement of presence as a quote from a book.

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Neo,

If you read the verses preceding Verse 20 of 1 Corinthians 10 I think this issue is explained in greater detail.

1 Corinthians 10:16-20: Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.

Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons.

So, it seems to me that the symbol of the cup and the breaking of bread are in worship of Christ and not considered idolatry. So, why would wearing a cross in worship of Christ therefore be considered idolatry?

There is a big difference between offering sacrifices and worship to false gods and pagan gods and the true worship of the Lord Jesus Christ.

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Would you prefer I use the word veneration instead of worship? I don't think it makes any difference. So far, people seem to be saying that 'what we are doing is OK, because of what it means to us'. Once again, I say it is not our perception that matters, but God's.

The cross is still used as a symbol in many non christian religions. It's meaning has long been associated with a celebration of male sexuality. Are you really willing to assume that the cross is somehow OK for christians just because Jesus may have been put to death on something resembling a cross?

The extrapolation of that argument, the christianization of pagan symbols and rituals, is used heavily by some churches.

Does this look familiar?

This?

Or this?

http://home.earthlink.net/~pgwhacker/ChristianOrigins/orpheusCross2.jpg

The pagan god Bacchus (Dionysus) dying by crucifixion.

Will Durant wrote:

Christianity did not destroy paganism; it adopted it.

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Neo,

Read my post right above yours. You have to remember also, you and I view the Bible very differently.

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Momma Angel wrote:

Neo,

Read my post right above yours. You have to remember also, you and I view the Bible very differently.

Bertrand Russell, a famous atheist, made this important point about the proliferation of religions in the world - that only one of them could be right. Of course, he chose to believe that none of them were correct.

In the final analysis, there can be only one correct interpretation of the bible. I will not presume to say mine is that correct interpretation; but I will aver that my eyes are wider open than most.

We can be forgiven for our errors only so long as we do not persist in them upon being corrected. (Hebrews 10:26)

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Neo, your Will Durant quote is spot-on. Precisely. Christianity adopted all the outward trappings of paganism in order to draw more former pagans into the fold And this is not something that is unique to Christianity per se, it can be seen throughout the Judeo-Christian tradition, in the Old Testament as well as the New. The Hebrews borrowed from the traditions of the Babylonians and from the Egyptians. The very concept that the world was created in six days, with the seventh reserved as a day of rest, has Babylonian roots. The story of Noah's flood is told in the folklores of a number of Middle Eastern peoples. (See the Epic of Gilgamesh.) This in no way weakens Judaism, nor does veneration of the Cross diminish the ardor of a believing Christian. Your point that the cross is originally a pagan symbol is valid. The conclusions you draw from that observation, however, leave a lot to be desired.

Somebody else has already said this, or something very much like it: God does not change over time, no, but human understanding of God does. What was thought of as concrete fact by some of our ancestors we now recognize to be symbol and allegory instead. It doesn't change the facts, only our understanding of them.

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The fact that a civilization existed in Babylon before the writings of Moses is not proof that the Jews borrowed from the Babylonians. In fact, the bible gives an extremely coherent explanation of why most languages and civilizations may be traced to the Plains of Shinar.

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Oh, Lordy! If you consider the story of Shinar and the Tower of Babel, as told in Genesis 11:1-9, "an extremely coherent explanation" of anything whatsoever, there's hardly any point in my continuing a discission with you here.

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neologist wrote:

The pagan god Bacchus (Dionysus) dying by crucifixion.

Do you know the date of this? Is it BC? It's very interesting symbolism. 7 Stars, Crescent and star at he apex. Not sure what to make of the V shape at the bottom, kind of makes the whole thing look like an anchor. It is possible that Christian symbolism infected some pagans as well perhaps. Particularly through Gnosis in the first few centuries AD.

Idolatry seems to be one of the major contentions between Protestants and Catholics. Catholics believe in things like excersism and the use of Holey water and the Cross to ward off evil. Protestants seem to use the Cross as a symbol of their faith, like the Jesus fish.

The Cross as a pagan symbol seems obvious as it is a simple design that is immediately recognizable as something, sort of like the spiral, or circle for that matter. With all the perfusion of religions and beliefs, sooner or later there is going to be a collision of symbols. As Christ was crucified, it seems to make perfect sense for Christians to use a cross as the symbol of that transformative moment for Christ. To prove otherwise you would need to show who the Christians were trying to suck up to. For example, I have heard the date chosen for Christmas was selected to take over a specific pagan festival.

Here are some links to Idolatry I found:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idolatry
http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~lyman/english233/idolatry.htm
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/i/id/idolatry_in_christianity.htm

Kind Regards

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jstark wrote:

neologist wrote:
The pagan god Bacchus (Dionysus) dying by crucifixion.

Do you know the date of this? Is it BC?

Not sure, just an interesting representation.

Merry Andrew wrote:

Oh, Lordy! If you consider the story of Shinar and the Tower of Babel, as told in Genesis 11:1-9, "an extremely coherent explanation" of anything whatsoever, there's hardly any point in my continuing a discission with you here.

http://web4.ehost-services.com/el2ton1/worthy.gif

So Sorry! I bow to your genius!

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Neo help!

I was so happy to get that link to the smileys, but I can't get them to work. What did I do wrong?

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Momma Angel wrote:

Neo help!

I was so happy to get that link to the smileys, but I can't get them to work. What did I do wrong?

When the page comes up, right click on a smiley, and a new box will open up. Click on the word properties. Highlight the URL for the properties and click copy. Go back to your post and click IMG in the function row for your post. A script prompt will appear. Paste the URL in the script box and click OK. Preview post to make sure it came out OK. Have fun!

Once again, the web page is located at
http://web4.ehost-services.com/el2ton1/smilies.htm

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Momma Angel wrote:

Neo,

If you read the verses preceding Verse 20 of 1 Corinthians 10 I think this issue is explained in greater detail.

1 Corinthians 10:16-20: Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.

Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons.

So, it seems to me that the symbol of the cup and the breaking of bread are in worship of Christ and not considered idolatry. So, why would wearing a cross in worship of Christ therefore be considered idolatry?

There is a big difference between offering sacrifices and worship to false gods and pagan gods and the true worship of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Where does is say in the Bible that we are to worship Christ or the cross via Christ?

And Neo is right the Bible calls the cross a "tree" and the word cross biblically means simply barrier, like a fence can be a cross in the Bible too. Jesus was crucified with his hands above his head and not at his sides (Like the Norse did it).

The use of crosses today is simply a pagan influence on pure Christianity. We should not need to use a physical cross to remember the spiritual reality. Nor should we glorify in a crucifixion tool (A tool that severs the soul from the body).

A dove symbolizes life much better than a cross... Yet, even doves were "worshiped" by pagans. There is only one way to worship God and that is in spirit. The manifestation of the spirit is the only true worship of God.

We worship "God" in spirit and in truth. Nowhere in the Bible are we ever directed to "worship Jesus". Jesus himself many times directs the admonishment from himself and towards God. "It is not I but my father in heaven..." If we worship Jesus it is the same as worshiping the devil.

Jesus Christ (body, soul and spirit) is part of the creation of God as the devil is also part of God's creation likewise are we also part of God's creation. When need to worship the creator and not the creation.

All things are created by the creator.

Jesus was nailed to a barrier or wall of ignorance and disbelief (spiritual deficiency).

John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

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JOHN 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

Does it really matter whether Christ died with His arms out to the side or down at His side? Isn't the main focus the fact that He died for our sins so we may have eternal life?

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Good point, MA. But what about the pagan origin of the cross symbol and what it stands for? And when it comes to veneration of the cross, is that not, in itself, idolatry?

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neologist - You NEVER should have told how to get to the smiley page where I could see it. You may have well created a monster!!!

http://web4.ehost-services.com/el2ton1/cheers.gif

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Why does the christian cross defraud? Maybe it was a double cross?

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Phoenix32890 wrote:

neologist - You NEVER should have told how to get to the smiley page where I could see it. You may have well created a monster!!!

Brewski?, OK.

Pizza? Why thank you!

http://web4.ehost-services.com/el2ton1/pizza.gif

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Momma Angel wrote:

JOHN 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

Does it really matter whether Christ died with His arms out to the side or down at His side? Isn't the main focus the fact that He died for our sins so we may have eternal life?

This debate on the divinity of Christ is not to separate us but to draw us closer toward the one mind of God.

God and his son are one in will and purpose but not in person.

1Co 15:28
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Comment:
How can the son be co-equal with God if in the end (talos = end of the end) the son will be subject unto God?

Christ Jesus is subject unto God in the end because he is part of the creation not the creator.

Lu 22:42
Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

This scripture indicates God and Jesus had different wills... Yet Jesus did the will of his father not his own.

This shows they were different persons. Jesus was asking himself to remove a cup?

Jesus was one with God in will and purpose but they are not one in person. I believe God was in Christ as spirit in the same way God is in us as spirit

Jesus was body soul and spirit...

We are body (formed) soul (made) and spirit (created) too.

The spirit part of Jesus and us is the created "image" of God.

The image of something is not the thing the image itself represents...

Col 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Comment:
Would you trade a dollar bill for an "image" of a dollar bill?

And also, creatures are "created" and God was not created.

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The cross is merely a symbol. It is NOT the object of worship. Christ Crucified IS the object of worship. Anything can be considered an idol if you give more attention to it then you do to God.

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Why does the christian cross defraud?

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