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US urged to end economic blockade on Cuba

 
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Oct, 2005 05:44 am
panzade wrote:
We agree on a lot george and I respect your thoughtful analysis. But it seems as if you're saying we shouldn't liberate the man that has resided in a dark dungeon for 40 years for fear that the rich food and sunlight might somehow cause his death.

I grew up in Argentina and our history classes never portrayed the struggle against Spain as racial just as the colonists here didn't throw off the yoke of England for racial reasons. More like economic ones. There was indeed a racial flavor to the rush to exterminate the Patagonian natives but this was at the hands of second generation settlers that were always casting about for someone to feel superior to.


We do agree on most of this. Please understand I'm not suggesting that South and Central America are or were more racist than the U.S. in their history, only that the Iberian colonial masters and their successoers applied their own variety of elimination of native peoples and exploitation of African slaves, just as did their cousins in the U.S. In both cases it was the later generations of colonists who were most aggressive in suppressing the native population - and for obvious reasons: they were in direct conflict with them for the land. The U.S. suppression of the Cherokees (who attempted to adopt the European culture and language is a bit similar to the struggle of the Guarani in Paraguay & Brasil. My point is that the council of Iberian nations or whatever it calls itself is beiong hypocritical and petty.

With respect to Cuba and Castro = it just isn't worth our trouble to remove this tired and failing, but very clever dictator. It is the misfortune of the Cuban people that they did not create a better government or overthrow the tyrant who now oppresses them. we need to conserve our strength and resources, taking on only those struggles that directly threaten our vital interests, and avoid marching off smartly in all directions. Castro and Cuba are simply not very important to us.
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2005 04:43 pm
Cuba Today: A Nation Becoming a University
by Cliff DuRand http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=8898
0 Replies
 
fbaezer
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2005 07:18 pm
Even if georgeob1 make some good points, as usual, I tend to agree with Panzade.

The notion that the US did no harm to Cuba is preposterous.

I will go back only briefly to the independence war, when the US substituted, in the last minute, the already winning Cuban freedom fighters against Spain, thus "limping" Cuban independence, at least on the eyes of every Cuban (and getting a good grip in the Phillipines and Puerto Rico in the negotiations after the Spanish-American war).

The US never supported tyrant Castro, yes. But it did support dictator Batista, and helpéd make things easier for big American produce and sugarcane companies, and the Italian-American mafia, who had a stronghold in the island's casinos, whorehouses, betting places and the like.
This, the average Cuban saw as a very evil hand.

The US actively fought agaisnt Castro even when he was inmensely popular among his people, and there was still a big discussion about the path of the revolution. American stiffness (if he's not OUR son of a bitch, we'll overthrow him, like we did with Arbenz in Guatemala) helped the hard-liners within the revolution and helped throw Cuba into Communism and a one man autocracy, That's what I call harm.

The embargo has always been senseless and stupid. I agree that lifting it today would give an inmediate ideological boost to Fidel. But I think that after the bubble, the boost will become a bust. The embargo has been THE GREATEST PRETEXT Castro had had over this decades to justify economic failures and political repression. The embargo says: "Cuba has a big, active, enemy" and every Cuban democrat is, thus, acused of helping the Enemy.
If the embargo was lifted, sooner or later, it would be seen that Emperor Fidel has no clothes.

...

I will not dwell with Cuban propaganda posts. There's hardly a word of truth in them.

---


About racism in the independence wars of Latin America:
Perhaps Argentina and Uruguay, being nations of colonists rather than conquerer nations, had less of a racial scent in their independence wars.
Other nations did.
Mexico is a clear example. Colonial New Spain (what is now Mexico, Central America and several US states) was a society divided by racial status. Some jobs were not available to indians. Some were not available to mestizos. Some were only available to criollos (born in the Americas of Spanish blood). Some, yet, were only available to Peninsulares (born in Spain). This element was key to the popular revolt.
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2005 08:19 pm
blueflame1 wrote:
Cuba Today: A Nation Becoming a University
by Cliff DuRand http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=8898


Some absurd contentions...the truth must lie somewhat more in the middle
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2005 08:21 pm
fbaezer wrote:
If the embargo was lifted, sooner or later, it would be seen that Emperor Fidel has no clothes.


In a nutshell
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Oct, 2005 08:24 pm
fbaezer wrote:
About racism in the independence wars of Latin America:
Perhaps Argentina and Uruguay, being nations of colonists rather than conquerer nations, had less of a racial scent in their independence wars.
Other nations did.
Mexico is a clear example. Colonial New Spain (what is now Mexico, Central America and several US states) was a society divided by racial status. Some jobs were not available to indians. Some were not available to mestizos. Some were only available to criollos (born in the Americas of Spanish blood). Some, yet, were only available to Peninsulares (born in Spain). This element was key to the popular revolt.


I stand corrected...however, in terms of black/white racism in Brazil, Cuba and Dominica, the US has a much bigger problem...in my estimation
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Oct, 2005 11:04 am
fbaezer wrote:

The US never supported tyrant Castro, yes. But it did support dictator Batista, and helpéd make things easier for big American produce and sugarcane companies, and the Italian-American mafia, who had a stronghold in the island's casinos, whorehouses, betting places and the like.


I don't think it is accurate to say we "supported" Batista. Previously Cuba had, at best, a very unstable democracy and was infected with the problems of racial stratification, concentration of wealth and land, and authoritarianism that infected other Latin American countries. We recognized Batista's government and dealt with him - then in the context of the Cold War and the prospect of socialist revolutionary movements around the world. Finally - why should we now imitate our former policy with the current dictator? If our recognition of Batista was bad, how could recognition of Castro be good ?

The American mafia had just recently consolidated its infiltration of Cuba's gambling casinos & whorehouses when Castro took over.. However they were already well-established by the time the Mafia arrived on the scene.

Quote:
The US actively fought agaisnt Castro even when he was inmensely popular among his people, and there was still a big discussion about the path of the revolution. American stiffness (if he's not OUR son of a bitch, we'll overthrow him, like we did with Arbenz in Guatemala) helped the hard-liners within the revolution and helped throw Cuba into Communism and a one man autocracy, That's what I call harm.

Why be vague about it? Do you argue that- had the U.S. welcomed Castro's revolution it would have somehow become democratic? I believe that implied proposition is quite thoroughly contrary to the facts.

Quote:
The embargo has always been senseless and stupid. I agree that lifting it today would give an inmediate ideological boost to Fidel. But I think that after the bubble, the boost will become a bust. The embargo has been THE GREATEST PRETEXT Castro had had over this decades to justify economic failures and political repression. The embargo says: "Cuba has a big, active, enemy" and every Cuban democrat is, thus, acused of helping the Enemy.
If the embargo was lifted, sooner or later, it would be seen that Emperor Fidel has no clothes.
I believe the embargo made sense when it was enacted. The Soviets were using Cuba to export weapoins and revolution throughout the hemisphers, and our actions to limit the contagion were both effective and appropriate. Today it is meaningless, but I believe that removing it would do more harm than good.

Mostly I regard interest in the embargo question as a gross denial of the truly significant and important fact -- that of Castro's continued oppression and totalitarian rule. Castro is not a product of the embargo - he is its cause. If there is anyone out there who somehow believes - in the face of so much evidence to the contrary - that Castro and the revolution he represents are anything but regressive tyranny, I cannot imagine that the mere lifting of the U.S. embargo will alter their views. Castro is adept at blaming his repeated failures on the actions of others. The effort to somehow deprive this supreme liar of material for his prevarications is at best a fool's errand.

Lastly, Cuba just isn't very important to us. Best to just wait for the rotten apple to fall.
0 Replies
 
fbaezer
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Oct, 2005 09:25 am
Sorry for the late response, but I kind of cease to exist during the World Series.

Certainly, the Cold War is a key to understand the policies of those days. My personal belief is that the US was too worried about socialism and not worried enough about democracy. They didn't see Batista as a good, I concede, but as a lesser evil. Only he was seen not as a lesser evil than a socialist ruler, but also as a lesser evil than a nationalist, social reform minded democrat.

This is interesting, since Marxism emphasizes economics and pro-market ideology is supposed to emphasize freedom. The overall American attitude towards the Third World emphasized economics so much, it gave reason to Marxist reasoning: "they're not interested in freedom, but in profits for US corporations".

----
Castro was not Communist from the beginning. He was a member of the Orthodox Revolutionary Party, an organization much nearer Latin American nationalist populism, Perón style. Most of the early revolutionary leaders, even if left leaning, did not know a thing about Marxism and had no ties to the Soviet Union. The big exception was an outsider, Che Guevara. The goal most revolutionaries had was to become Cuba "The Switzerland of the Americas" (Castro's words), but their real model was Uruguay,

On the early days of the Revolution there were huge debates among leaders, regarding the course of the Revolution. The US did everything to radicalize the majority of them (Nixon had a personal dislike for Castro, and did not receive him, when he visited the US, among other slaps).
Dissension appeared, and the leader among the dissenter was Comandante Huber Matos. The other important moderate was Comandante Camilo Cienfuegos, number 2 of the Revolution (Guevara was number 3). When Matos revolved, in the province of Oriente, Camilo Cienfuegos was sent to Santiago to negotiate. He died on a plane crash on his way back (some say he was murdered by Castro). Matos spent many years as a political prisoner.

---

If Castro caused the embargo, why wasn't there an embargo against a comparable tyrant, Nicolae Ceaucescu?
Was there, I ask, a mandatory embargo against Kim Il Sung or Mao Tse Tung? I don't know, but can't recall one.

----

Will be back later on racism in the Caribbean countries.
0 Replies
 
blueflame1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Oct, 2005 09:35 am
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Oct, 2005 06:45 pm
Glad to see that Blueflame is so willing to enlighten us here with the propaganda of the miserable government that still oppresses the Cuban people.

It is sufficient to note that, notwithstanding the bold assertions in the comtemptable screed above, the Cuban people are neither free, noir independent, nor sovereign. They are under the thumb of a backward tyrant who has ruled them in the most authoritarian manner for over forty years - and never once held an election.

Now with respect to the rather more thoughtful comments by Fbaezer--

Quote:
My personal belief is that the US was too worried about socialism and not worried enough about democracy.


An interesting observation with respect to the Cold war. However, please note that our Cold War opponents - and as well many of the "non aligned nations" - styled themselves as democracies or "peoples democracies" even though they were almost all avowedly Socialist -- and authoritarian, in many cases, rather awful tyrannies. They freely identified themselves as socialistic and were successful in making that (and the imaginary benefits they promised) the issue between us. One could argue that we failed to confront and reverse this gambit, but, frankly I don't see how it could have been done. So many of the self-described "intellectuals" of the West clung to the illusions promised by Soviet and other forms of Socialism, often in the face of overwhelming evidence of the brutality and incompetence of these regimes and the backward economic systems they fostered.

The first generation of post-colonial African rulers adopted the "Social Democratic" models then much loved by international "intellectuals". Nearly all degenerasted into corrupt, inept authoritarian dictatorships that wasted a generation to poverty and tyranny.

The other, perhaps more benign forms of authoritarianism to which you referred, ranging (in the Western hemisphere) from Peronism to the PRI, produced - at best - stagnation (Mexico) and at worst a near permanent national neurosis (Argentina). All of these systems were Democratic in form and all stoutly resisted any suggestion that they were otherwise. However they also limited freedom and suppressed free economic activity on the part of their people. Even Uruguay isn't much to brag about.(Mexico has - happily - on its own, broken free of its former stagnation, and, though there are undoubtedly difficulties ahead, will almost certainly grow in prosperity and freedom.)

We were indeed interested in profits for our companies, but we were interested in freedom too. We can be justifiably criticized for some inconsistency in pursuing these goals, but I think we can be forgiven for concluding that a Cuba, backed by the Soviet Union, posed a more proximate hazard to us than (say) a Romania led by a crazed Socialist tyrant and trusted by no one.

I don't think that either you or I truly knows what were Castro's true thoughts and beliefs, either then or now. It is sufficient to note his actions. Clearly he was disposed to be an authoritarian tyrant in any evolution his revolution might take. Frankly I don't give much importance to the thoretical debates among authoritarian figures (revolutionaries or otherwise) who are clearly all disposed to enforce their beliefs as to how people should live - with or without their consent. Do the different shades of the theologies behind their totalitarian authoritarianism really matter at all? I don't think so.

We did indeed have comparable embargoes against Mao's China and North Koreas. Mostly it was done as a security measure to prevent (or merely limit) infiltration and the export of militarily useful technologies.

The matter of the Cuban embargo is interesting only as an indicator of the degree to which people will focus on trivia in the face of serious issues.
Again, Cuba has no money with which to buy our goods, and produces nothing we have a great interest in buying. (The Dominican Cohibas are a most acceptable substitute, and, besides I have cut back on the cigars.)

One can pity the Cuban people and wish that they would rise up and claim their freedom. However - as is so often the case - they have not. For our part we should avoid the assumption that we are suitable reformers for the world. We should focus only on those issues which truly threaten us. Overall, I think we have followed that standard reasonably well. We have not always been either wise or successful, but overall done a bit better in our moment in history's sun than did most who have gone before us.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Feb, 2007 01:22 am
It seems not only that there is no end of the US ban, but it has been "broadened":

Quote:
No room at the Hilton: Cubans find US trade ban stretches to Oslo


· Norwegian unions protest global effect of embargo
· Booking would have caused chaos says hotel

Duncan Campbell
Monday February 5, 2007
The Guardian


An Oslo hotel, owned by the US Hilton chain, refused a booking by a Cuban trade delegation to the city's travel fair last month because of the US embargo of the communist Caribbean island.
The Hilton group is also banning Cuban delegations from all of its hotels around the world as are other American hotel companies, a Hilton spokeswoman in London told the Guardian yesterday.

"We are a US company," said Linda Bain, vice-president for communications at the group. "The dilemma we face is that [if we took a booking from a Cuban delegation] we would be subject to fines or prison and if anyone [from the company] tried to enter the US, they would be arrested." She said they were now seeking clarification of their position from the US government.

Norwegian trade unions and anti-racist organisations complained about the Scandic hotel's actions and are now moving union conferences elsewhere until the policy is changed.
"It is not allowed by law in Norway to discriminate on grounds of gender, religion or nationality," said the deputy leader of the Norwegian Union of Municipal and General Employees, Anne Grethe Skaardal. "It is unacceptable for the US to dictate to the whole world."

The hotel ban is just one of the latest of many similar actions prompted by the US embargo of Cuba.

Last month freelance journalist Tom Fawthrop, who has written for the Guardian and the Economist, was puzzled that he had not been paid for an article in the Sydney Morning Herald that he had written about the Cuban health service. On enquiring what had happened, he received this message from Citibank Global: "Due to US sanctions, your payment was stopped for the following reason - reference to Cuban doctors. The Office of Foreign Asset Controls is requesting clarification. Please advise details of Cuban doctors and also purpose of this transaction."

Last year, Ann Louise Bardach, the American journalist and author who wrote the book Cuba Confidential, was also puzzled that she had not received payment for consultancy work on the Channel Four Film, 638 Ways to Kill Castro. She took the matter up with the production company in London and it transpired that the payment had indeed been sent but had been held up in the US because the word "Cuba" appeared in reference to the payment.

When the Cuba Solidarity Campaign, based in north London, needed to buy a new office computer they approached Dell, whose headquarters are in Texas. The order was placed and accepted but a few days later they were contacted by Dell seeking information about the destination of the computer. They explained that it was for use in London offices. Dell then wanted to know about the organisation's funding and the names of their executive members. The campaign decided to take their custom elsewhere.

"The fact that the Cuba Solidarity Campaign, a UK based NGO, are restricted from buying a Dell computer for use in our north London offices, illustrates the far reaching effects of a blockade that is increasingly imposing US bigotry and absurdity onto the lives of UK citizens," said Rob Miller of Cuba Solidarity.

The hotel ban has also operated in different parts of the world. Last year, the Mexican government fined the Sheraton Maria Isabel hotel in Mexico City around £60,000 for expelling 16 Cuban guests.

Last night the Labour MP Colin Burgon contacted the foreign secretary, Margaret Beckett, to ask her to issue a "robust rebuttal" to the hotel ban.

The Labour MP Ian Gibson, the chairman of the group, described the ban as "small-minded". A vote on the embargo at the UN last year showed that 183 countries oppose it and four (the US, Israel, Palau and the Marshall Islands) support it. The embargo, which is supported by the Bush administration, is opposed by opposition groups in Cuba which describe it as counter-productive. A growing number of US politicians also seek to have the embargo lifted.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Feb, 2007 05:06 am
While we're urging countries to abandon things, I urge Cuba to abandon it's present form of government - dictatorship - and let its citizen's choose their government in elections.
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Feb, 2007 06:01 am
although rather capricious and dated...this list begs the question "Why such an uneven use of economic sanctions?"
Is it possibly because Cuba offers no compensation for our goodwill?

1. Omar al-Bashir, Sudan. Age 61. In power since 1989. Last year's rank: 7

2. Kim Jong Il, North Korea. Age 62. In power since 1994. Last year's rank: 1

3. Than Shwe, Burma. Age 72. In power since 1992. Last year's rank: 2

4. Hu Jintao, China. Age 62. In power since 2002. Last year's rank: 3

5. Crown Prince Abdullah, Saudi Arabia. Age 81. In power since 1995. Last year's rank: 5
0 Replies
 
 

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