If we were created perfect, why do we sin?

But, if God is omnipresent/omniscient, would it not follow that He would have known from the beginning of the world, before Adam and Eve were created, what the outcome would be? Wouldn't He have known that sin would supposedly enter the world through Eve's actions, resulting in the birth and death of Christ, which was supposed to remove our sins? Which raises the question, why do we still die if we are made sinless by Jesus's death? Two questions here, sorry.

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englishmajor wrote:

But, if God is omnipresent/omniscient, would it not follow that He would have known from the beginning of the world, before Adam and Eve were created, what the outcome would be?

This has been my conundrum.

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Wouldn't He have known that sin would supposedly enter the world through Eve's actions, resulting in the birth and death of Christ, which was supposed to remove our sins? Which raises the question, why do we still die if we are made sinless by Jesus's death? Two questions here, sorry.

Well, death is a reaction to life, not sin. Everything that lives will die. The christians hold that if we believe in jesus then we get a free pass to heaven. But they also apparently believe that this also applies to people that lived before Jesus came, that God's grace would be sufficient to save everyone. Which makes Jesus a bit superfulous. I've never really understood that.

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"...makes jesus a bit superfluous..." is the same question I've had, cause why does god need jesus to appease himself?

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englishmajor wrote:

But, if God is omnipresent/omniscient, would it not follow that He would have known from the beginning of the world, before Adam and Eve were created, what the outcome would be? Wouldn't He have known that sin would supposedly enter the world through Eve's actions, resulting in the birth and death of Christ, which was supposed to remove our sins?

And my answer all along has been that God has no more obligation to know every detail of the future than you or I must read the last page of the whodunit.

englishmajor wrote:

Which raises the question, why do we still die if we are made sinless by Jesus's death? Two questions here, sorry.

Because there was more than one issue raised in the Garden of Eden. First, we are not made sinless by Jesus death; we are forgiven for our sins if we exercise faith in his sacrifice. (John 3:16)

Another issue centers around the ability of humans to keep integrity to God. In other words, would we obey God because of love for Him or for some other reason such as fear or the desire for reward?

A third is the question of whether humans really are better off deciding for themselves what is right and what is wrong. Or, can human government provide for all of our needs?

And one of the most important issues in the grand scheme of things, but which may not be so obvious to us, is the issue of God's sovereignty or right to rule.

If you read Satan's challenge carefully, all of these issues are raised. Now, I realize it has been an extremely long time for us. And we may think these questions should have been dispatched long ago, but we don't measure time the same way God does. And look at it this way: If you happen to survive into God's promise and live to be a few hundred years old, would you thank God for your life or rebuke him for the time He took?

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Questioner wrote:

Well, death is a reaction to life, not sin. Everything that lives will die. The christians hold that if we believe in jesus then we get a free pass to heaven. But they also apparently believe that this also applies to people that lived before Jesus came, that God's grace would be sufficient to save everyone. Which makes Jesus a bit superfulous. I've never really understood that.

cicerone imposter wrote:

"...makes jesus a bit superfluous..." is the same question I've had, cause why does god need jesus to appease himself?

Don't be misled by the 'experts' who say the choice is between heaven and hell; read the book of Genesis which tells you the choice is between life on earth or death.

Jesus offered himself willingly in order to answer all of the challenges made by Satan, and not simply to provide a corresponding ransom for humans.

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Even jesus fell to the demands of satan, and god expects mortal humans not to? LIke somebody already said, god knew everything before he created this planet and the outcome. God had evil in his mind before it even came into being. He knew about satan, so god's demands are superfluous.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Even jesus fell to the demands of satan, and god expects mortal humans not to? LIke somebody already said, god knew everything before he created this planet and the outcome. God had evil in his mind before it even came into being. He knew about satan, so god's demands are superfluous.

When did Jesus fall to the demands of Satan?

Do you believe you have free will? Then why do you suppose we might have been created without it? Including Satan?

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Without satan, jesus would not be needed - would he?

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neo wrote:

It would be better to use the words 'chooses not to know and 'chooses not to control'.

But those are merely assumptive rationalizations to circumvent the paradoxes, neo. The "small mind" charge applies here as well.

You can't dismiss other people's questioning of the irrationality of these concepts as they are applied to god as "straw men," while you provide only rationalizations for these contradictions.

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ok, but if you read the following it does not explain why we still die, if indeed Christ died for our sins: Romans 5:12; 'that is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned'. 5:13: For until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not charged against anyone when there is no law'. And, John 1:29, '.....see, the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world'. Thus, death should not be happening any longer because that was why Jesus died for us, to remove sin? Arrrgghhhh! All too confusing.....

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Without satan, jesus would not be needed - would he?

True; but he would still exist. What's your point?

InfraBlue wrote:

neo wrote:
It would be better to use the words 'chooses not to know and 'chooses not to control'.

But those are merely assumptive rationalizations to circumvent the paradoxes, neo. The "small mind" charge applies here as well.

You can't dismiss other people's questioning of the irrationality of these concepts as they are applied to god as "straw men," while you provide only rationalizations for these contradictions.

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God knew satan would come into the picture. God could have circumvented the need for any jesus to forgive man for their sins. The death of jesus is not needed by god; if he is god. The deal is between god and humans, not jesus as an intermediary.

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englishmajor wrote:

ok, but if you read the following it does not explain why we still die, if indeed Christ died for our sins: Romans 5:12; 'that is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned'. 5:13: For until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not charged against anyone when there is no law'. And, John 1:29, '.....see, the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world'. Thus, death should not be happening any longer because that was why Jesus died for us, to remove sin? Arrrgghhhh! All too confusing.....

You wonder when. Daniel tells of a time when a kingdom of God will be established that will replace all other governments. (Daniel 2:44) Jesus taught us to pray for that kingdom in his sermon on the mount. And the book of Revelation describes what that will be like in Chapter 21.

We would all prefer to have this war and crime and sickness and death business over with as soon as possible. But God does not operate in the same time frame as we do.

There's more to it, of course.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

God knew satan would come into the picture.

You say

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I agree with you, c.i. It should be between God/humans. Jesus was a sacrifice and sacrifices were supposed to have been given up in the Old Testament, I thought. If Jesus didn't remove sin (because we still die) then what was his purpose?

Another question: Some people believe in the Trinity which is really a paradox. If God became Jesus and died on the cross, then who was running the universe? I don't agree with the Trinity theory; it is not supported anywhere in the Bible.

It's like we were set up to fail from the beginning. If God knew when he created Adam and Eve that they would eat the fruit, or whatever, and gain knowledge, then why did He bother? Are we just a game between Satan and God, to see who gets the most souls?

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It would seem to me that the sacrifice of jesus was to appease god, but why does god need a sacrifice?

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englishmajor wrote:

I agree with you, c.i. It should be between God/humans. Jesus was a sacrifice and sacrifices were supposed to have been given up in the Old Testament, I thought. If Jesus didn't remove sin (because we still die) then what was his purpose?

True; Jesus was a sacrifice, in fact the only sacrifice which would equal the perfect human Adam. He died so we could be forgiven of our sins. Some voluntary action on our part is still needed. Additionally, since other issues were raised in the Garden of Eden, a period of time has been allotted for these issues to be settled. Though I feel I know God fairly well, I have not yet reached a position where I can advise him as to when the appropriate time would be. :wink:

englishmajor wrote:

Another question: Some people believe in the Trinity which is really a paradox. If God became Jesus and died on the cross, then who was running the universe? I don't agree with the Trinity theory; it is not supported anywhere in the Bible.

Interesting discussion of trinity: http://able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=51117

englishmajor wrote:

It's like we were set up to fail from the beginning. If God knew when he created Adam and Eve that they would eat the fruit, or whatever, and gain knowledge, then why did He bother? Are we just a game between Satan and God, to see who gets the most souls?

Your assertion that God knew beforehand that Satan would rebel is an hypothesis contrary to fact.

cicerone imposter wrote:

It would seem to me that the sacrifice of jesus was to appease god, but why does god need a sacrifice?

The sacrifice was in our behalf. God had the right and could have destroyed Adam and Eve before they bore children. Perhaps then He could have created another perfect human race.

Of course, then you and I would not have been born.

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The explanations of why omnipotence and omniscience are paradoxes with regard to the idea of free will is best explained by the explanation I gave. You've only provided platitudes, rationalizations, and a requisite to believe in the Bible to circumvent these contradictions.

It is interesting how you and the quotes you reference in the Bible:

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When my kids were growing up, I often gave them help with homework or some other problem. But once I showed them how to find the answer, I resisted any temptation to micro-manage their lives. That included spying on their privacy, even when it might have made my job 'easier'.

"Haven't you ever, for any reason, declined to do something which you had the power to do? Even if you had the right to do it?

and

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Remember that Jesus pointed out that a loving father would not give a stone to a hungry child who asked for a fish.(Matthew 7:9)

anthropomorphize the idea of God.

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The sacrifice was on behalf of man, but man doesn't need the sacrifice. Evidently god does, but that creates a problem with circular logic.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

The sacrifice was on behalf of man, but man doesn't need the sacrifice. Evidently god does, but that creates a problem with circular logic.

Circular logic is also evident in the evolution theory.

After God created Adam and Eve, he gave them the commandment not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He did this in order than man could exercise his own free will, and to determine whether man would be obedient to him only. Then, the Devil misled Eve to disobedience. Thus, the first sin was created.

The wages of sin is death and sin causes separation from God. This separation is not a natural death, but rather a spiritual death. Adam and Eve had to leave the Garden of Eden. Natural death followed later.

Later, God sent his Son to offer redemption to the world. The new convenant was formed which replaced the old covenant. (The Old Testament that so many use for their arguments)

The law of the Old Testament was replaced by the way of grace, the law of the Spirit of Jesus Christ. By accepting the grace of Jesus Christ, man can achieve the righteousness which counts before God. With the new covenant, the mission of His Son is no longer limited to the Israelites, but now people of all nations are chosen as God's people.

Circumcision was the mark of the old covenant. The rebirth with water and the Spirit is the mark of the new covenant.

When the time was fulfilled for Jesus to bring His sacrifice, Judas Iscariot betrayed Him. The betrayal was carried out under the influence of Satan. Jesus had foretold this betrayal at the Last Supper.

Through his sacrificial death, Jesus broke the power of Satan and so conquered death. He was resurrected and went back to be with His father until the time of redemption is at hand. Until mankind is redeemed, natural death as well as Spirtual death will still occur.

The first man sinned and man has continued to do so ever since. Man must come to the realization of a Godly and Spirtual life on his own. God will not wave his hand and suddenly turn us all into perfect beings like His Son. Forgiveness of sin is possible, but only to those with a truly repentent heart who endeavour not to sin any more. If this was easy, we would all be sinless and have everlasting life with our Saviour.

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If we were created perfect, why do we sin?

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