Nobody saved our bacon from Hitler and Stalin (who was not fighting the Allies in WW II, as it happens. WW II Europewm theatre probably had its bacon saved by the USSR's resistance to Hitler...remember, 20 million Russians died in that conflict), you helped save our bacon from Japan, after they bombed you at Pearl Harbour.
We did our best to save Europe's bacon from Hitler, though, starting from the day England declared war.
dlowan
Do you think Briton would have survived without the US help. Further, would D day been successful without US forces and material. As for the USSR without the second front in the West how successful would they have been. And without arsenal USA what would you be fighting with. Pea Shooters?
I will say again the US bailed Europe out. I should also add it gave life to Europe after the war with the Marshall plan. All the while keeping the Russian bear at bay..
All in all the so-call American experiment was a great success.
I don't understand how saying America helped win WWII lessens the efforts of other countries or why some members need to explain how their country did so-and-so to try to cheapen American efforts.
It's safe to say that American lives and treasure were not wasted in the effort to defeat Germany and Japan. Many sacrifices were made by many countries.
au1929 wrote:dlowan
Do you think Briton would have survived without the US help. Further, would D day been successful without US forces and material. As for the USSR without the second front in the West how successful would they have been. And without arsenal USA what would you be fighting with. Pea Shooters?
I will say again the US bailed Europe out. I should also add it gave life to Europe after the war with the Marshall plan. All the while keeping the Russian bear at bay..
All in all the so-call American experiment was a great success.
Sure.
I am not British, though.
You said (to GF who is also Australian) that the US saved our bacon from Hitler and Stalin. (Remember, Stalin's USSR massively helped save Europe's bacon, which I know you won't acknowledge, of course). Hitler never attacked Australia.
Unlike the US, whose right were often pro Hitler and who did not join WW II until Japan attacked you, we saw it as important to do what we could to defeat Hitler from day one, and joined the UK and Europe immediately. Hitler was never a direct threat to us, so you did not save OUR bacon from Hitler.
You DID save our bacon from Japan, after they attacked you, and there was a nice quid pro quo in that you got necessary forward bases.
We are very happy that you were big enough to do so...but I do not think we are convinced you did it to save our bacon! You wer esaving your own at the same time.
McG, for once I almost agree with you.
However, nobody is trying to cheapen America's sacrifices., or anybosy else's.
I, for one, am simply correcting shrilly inaccurate and uber patriotic false statements.
And some more ignorant Americans get right up everybody's noses by implying that you guys fought the damned war alone.
I have even had Americans on this board claiming that Oz "followed America into WW II"!!!!!
People will be far more willing to credit your country's massive contributions if you do not keep loudly and inaccurately trumpeting about them!
(The example here was Au's rather hysterical puffed up and agitated Colonel Blimp response to Steve's little bit of humour! Gentle dig..."WE SAVED YOU AND HERE YOU ARE DARING TO POKE FUN AT US< YOU INGRATe, YOU CUR!!!!! Lucky he didn't call for an invasion looking for weapons of mass satire! The Brits poke that kind of fun at us all the time, without hysterical responses of "We fought for you!!!!!! We died for you!!!!!)
Australia as did all other nations who were members of the British commonwealth came to the aid of the Mother country.
When I said you I was referring to all those who were part of the British Empire.
Lol!!!
We actually had a choice.
And Hitler was not a direct threat.
He was after we declared war, of course.
I simply corrected your hyperbole.
Of course, if Hitler was as ignorant as some Americans and such, it might have gone very badly for us very fast....he mnight have thought we were part of Austria...... :wink:
I did not say that the US did it alone and I applaud the admire the courage of the British people. However, like or not this so called failed experiment made possible the defeat of Hitler. The question I submit would Hitler been defeated without the participation of the US.
Oh for god's sake, Au, you need a sense of humour implant.
And a sense of irony!
Steve's comment was funny largely BECAUSE of the current differing status of your two countries!
It was deliciously ironic on many levels.
I know where you might be able to get a sense of humour and some appreciation of irony from, too.......try Amazon UK.....
Though many Americans DO seem to come equipped...
Should I get an Australian or British implant?
Hmmmmmmmm.......why not both?
The more the merrier!
I'd watch the German one, though. Their jokes go on forever....
dlowan wrote:au1929 wrote:dlowan
Do you think Briton would have survived without the US help. Further, would D day been successful without US forces and material. As for the USSR without the second front in the West how successful would they have been. And without arsenal USA what would you be fighting with. Pea Shooters?
I will say again the US bailed Europe out. I should also add it gave life to Europe after the war with the Marshall plan. All the while keeping the Russian bear at bay..
All in all the so-call American experiment was a great success.
Sure.
I am not British, though.
You said (to GF who is also Australian) that the US saved our bacon from Hitler and Stalin. (Remember, Stalin's USSR massively helped save Europe's bacon, which I know you won't acknowledge, of course). Hitler never attacked Australia.
Unlike the US, whose right were often pro Hitler and who did not join WW II until Japan attacked you, we saw it as important to do what we could to defeat Hitler from day one, and joined the UK and Europe immediately. Hitler was never a direct threat to us, so you did not save OUR bacon from Hitler.
You DID save our bacon from Japan, after they attacked you, and there was a nice quid pro quo in that you got necessary forward bases.
We are very happy that you were big enough to do so...but I do not think we are convinced you did it to save our bacon! You wer esaving your own at the same time.
i agree ms lowan (If i may be so formal). All this history stuff is making me very hungry...must have bacon sandwich...sorry au.
englishmajor wrote:RexRed wrote:englishmajor wrote:Sorry to disappoint you, Rex. I am Canadian; therefore I have more than two parties to choose from. We actually have 4 in Canada. I am neither Dem or Rep, neither left or right.
Who has been filling my head with thoughts that the world does not like America!!??? Where have you been? That IS the world opinion. I see you do not read or watch anything out of the realm of CNN, etc. America has the right to 'go out and see who our friends are'? What an innocent, naive statement! That is not what America is doing. Have you heard of globalization? It's another word for imperialism, and that is what America is up to. I suggest you go to PNAC website (Project for a New American Century). You'll be surprised to see who the members are. Jeb is one... Please don't try and tell me America is out and about handing out candy to the world and making friends. They are, in fact, trying to push free trade down everyone's throat. Maybe you didn't know, but NAFTA does not work here in Canada (if you happened to hear on your US news, which I doubt - NAFTA has ruled in Canada's favour about the softwoods tariff illegally placed on our lumber, but the US will not honour that agreement) that is just another example of how America deals with other countries. I am glad we have a PM (Prime Minister) who sees through the BS that people like Cond. Rice (who worked for Chevron before she became George's little friend) spew out.
Did you know, Rex, that the Taliban were financed by the US? Look it up online, it's no secret for those who look for answers in places other than CNN, Fox, etc. The US is simply in Iraq for oil. Bush admitted that. Why aren't they in other places in the world where tyranny exists? Why aren't they helping the Palestinians? Why do they allow Israel to have WMD's, and kill Palestinians? Can you answer those questions? Oh, and don't worry about Pakistan. America has their little puppet in charge there; not likely he will use his WMD's....but you never know. The point is, the US used the Taliban until they did not need them any longer, then they became terrorists.
And you're right, this thread is not the correct one for such discussions. I'll be happy to talk with you on the "is george bush a christian' or 'why did america attack iraq'.
Please look up some sites on the net, or read or watch BBC ---something! and get back to me. I think you'll have a different opinion when you learn what PNAC plans. I know when I lived in the States I did not hear half of what I hear on our news here in Canada, which is more globally oriented.......
Like I said, less than half of what you are saying is actually based on solid facts. The US did not become the worlds only super power by being "unpopular"...
You are simply politically slanted and for an "english major" I think you could learn to have an original thought. You are just spouting out leftist propaganda talking points that have no real "truth". You have an agenda. You have been programed with your slander and you simply spout it off like some kind of mindless robot.
I don't have this issue that you have... I voted for Al Gore! not Bush. Then I voted for Bush.
I am a republican (moderate) but I ALSO believe in choice. I also do not think abortion should be used as a form of "contraception"... When it gets to mistake number six and seven then I think that people who have had that many abortions should be listed with pedophiles on the internet...
But I don't get this kind of attack the issues with logic approach from you. I feel it is more attack the issues with partisanship in your case.
I think you or at least your friends are even delusional.
You want to believe anything that pushes your hate agenda further.
Do you even have one original solution other than the generic hate Bush hate America rant?
I am not against free trade... I am for fair trade too.... I believe we should trade with people who are providing their people with hospitals and schools. Do you have a problem with that? Or should we only trade with dictators and people who strap bombs to babies?
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I don't think you are quite a rational person
because your response had no basis in fact. Have you checked out PNAC? You should, all of the folks you like & admire so much are in there: Rummy, Jeb Bush, Libby, Wolfowitz etc. They plan on global dominance and are making no bones about it. What part of that don't you get?
My solution would have been to
not vote for Bush in the first place. That was an interesting election with the hanging chads, misplaced ballots, etc. wasn't it? It kept us Canucks amused anyway.
My condolences that you voted for him in the last election.
You quoted no original source, nothing factual. You are apparently deluded that America is a superpower (which is on the wane, by the way.
Did you know China holds 200 BILLION in debts for America? The largest debt EVER. That was on our newscast last night, but I'm sure you could do a google search and see for yourself. Please don't just rant. Look things up. Check out the sites I mentioned. Or are you afraid it might besmirch your naive idea of what America could have been?
I don't hate America. I would not waste my energy. Show me where I said that, please?
I feel sorry for people who are so deluded they think America is in Iraq for a good purpose. Maybe you should ask an Iraqi. Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis were killed in the name of democracy, something in short supply in America. Course, they just call that collateral damage. Sounds better than 'we just killed a lot of civilians today" doesn't it? Would Saddam have killed that many? How are the Americans any better? Why don't they go on home now and clean up their own mess in America? Maybe impeach Bush, something constructive.
America is a superpower in its own mind (see above: 200 billion owed to China). You are now beginning to pay for your hubris and trampling of smaller countries around the world to get what you want. What goes around, comes around.....
You are for fair trade? That would mean that you support NAFTA?? Good. Then you support their last ruling? Good again. That means that you support the US giving Canada back
5 million for illegally collected softwoods tariffs. Or had you even heard about that? I like fair trade when it's fair. Ignoring NAFTA rulings is the way America plays. Like the bully on the block.
Whatever are you babbling about here? " I believe we should trade with people who are providing their people with hospitals and schools. Do you have a problem with that? Or should we only trade with dictators and people who strap bombs to babies?
You've gone and confused countries here....it's Canada that has national health coverage for everyone. The US does if you can afford it. We have schools, too! At any rate, I didn't make any comments about schools/hospitals. Do I have a problem with what?
Your president IS a dictator. He even admitted it would be easier if he was. I'm sure he was just fooling. I don't know where you're going on this rant, should we trade with dictators and people who strap bombs to babies, you ask? When did that happen? Didn't you read the above? Didn't you know that America was funding the Taliban in the 1980's in their fight against the Russians. Man, you guys in Maine need to read a bit more, don't ya!
[/quote]
Re: The Saving of Bacon
There should be no question that without the involvement of the US in WWII:
Nazi Germany would have conquered all of Europe, including the UK
Nazi Germany would have conquered all of Africa
Nazi Germany would have, eventually, conquered Russia
Japan would have conquered all of Asia west of Russia
Japan would have conquered Australia
As has been written, this does not minimize the efforts and sacrifices of all of the other nations of the world that opposed Germany and Japan, and it is certainly arguable that without the assistance of the Allies, the US would also, eventually, have fallen prey to the Axis, but there is no denying the fact the America was the Big Dog of the Allies and without it, history would be very much different.
As to why America entered the fray, what difference does it make?
So you admit that Nazi Germany posed a grave threat to the United States. Yet without Britain standing alone against Germany, an invasion of Western Europe would have been practically impossible. Where would your invasion fleet have set sail from, Virginia? Two years after the start of hostilities, after the Soviet Union was involved, and only when the US itself was attacked by Hitler's ally did America finally do the right thing.
You ungrateful eater of bad cuisine . . . how can you fail to acknowledge the cavalry when it shows up to haul your sorry, collective butt out of the fire? Why, why . . . we only did it because we are noble and disinterested--we just wanted everyone to get along, fer chrissake . . . why don't you just go eat a steak and kidney pie and thank the Lord Dog that we were there to assure your continued freedom to insult your digestive tract . . .
Some people . . .
Well I never did like Spam. Ingratitude? Agree a terrible thing.
Freedom and democracy exists in America! HAHAHAHAH! And you're going to spread it around eh? Pleassse don't spread it here to Canada.....
Some Kind of Manly
Bush administration, dead to morality, says torture is the American way
by Molly Ivins
Austin, Texas -- I can't get over this feeling of unreality, that I am actually sitting here writing about our country having a gulag of secret prisons in which it tortures people. I have loved America all my life, even though I have often disagreed with the government. But this seems to me so preposterous, so monstrous. My mind is a little bent and my heart is a little broken this morning.
Maybe I should try to get a grip -- after all, it's just this one administration that I had more cause than most to realize was full of inadequate people going in. And even at that, it seems to be mostly Vice President Cheney. And after all, we were badly frightened by 9-11, which was a horrible event. "Only" nine senators voted against the prohibition of "cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment of persons under custody or control the United States." Nine out of 100. Should we be proud? Should we cry?
"We do not torture," said our pitifully inarticulate president, straining through emphasis and repetition to erase the obvious.
A string of prisons in Eastern Europe in which suspects are held and tortured indefinitely, without trial, without lawyers, without the right to confront their accusers, without knowing the evidence or the charges against them, if any. Forever. It's "One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich." Another secret prison in the midst of a military camp on an island run by an infamous dictator. Prisoner without a name, cell without a number.
Who are we? What have we become? The shining city on a hill, the beacon and bastion of refuge and freedom, a country born amidst the most magnificent ideals of freedom and justice, the greatest political heritage ever given to any people anywhere.
I am baffled by these "arguments": But we're talking about really awful people, cries the harassed press secretary. People like X and Y and Z (after a time, one forgets all the names of the No. 2's after bin Laden we have captured). The SS and the Gestapo and the KVD weren't all that nice, either.
Then I hear the familiar tinniness of the fake machismo I know so well from George W. Bush and all the other frat boys who never went to Vietnam and never got over the guilt.
"Sometimes you gotta play rough," said Dick Cheney. No ****, Dick? Now why don't you tell that to John McCain?
I have known George W. Bush since we were both in high school -- we have dozens of mutual friends. I have written two books about him and so have interviewed many dozens more who know him well in one way or another. Spare me the tough talk. He didn't play football -- he was a cheerleader. "He is really competitive," said one friend. "You wouldn't believe how tough he is on a tennis court!" Just cut the macho crap -- I don't want to hear it.
If you are dead to all sense of morality (please let me not go off on the stinking sanctimony of this crowd), let us still reason together on the famous American common ground of practicality. Torture. Does. Not. Work.
Torture does not work. Ask the United States military. Ask the Israelis.
There seems to be some fantastic scenario floating around -- if Osama bin Laden had an atomic bomb hidden in a locker at Grand Central Station, and it was due to go off in 12 hours, and we had him in prison ... I seem to have missed some important television program on this theme. I am told it was fiction, but it must have been really scary -- it certainly seems to have unbalanced the minds of some of our fellow citizens.
Torture does not work. It is not productive. It does not yield important, timely information. That is in the movies. This is reality.
I grew up with all this pathetic Texas tough: Everybody here knows you can't make an omelet without breaking eggs; and this ain't beanbag; and I'll knock your jaw so far back, you'll scratch your throat with your front teeth; and I'm gonna cloud up and rain all over you; and I'm gonna open me a can of whup-ass ...
And that'll show 'em, won't it? Take some miserable human being alone and helpless in a cell, completely under your control, and torture him. Boy, that is some kind of manly, ain't it?
"The CIA is holding an unknown number of prisoners in secret detention centers abroad. In violation of the Geneva Conventions, it has refused to register those detainees with the International Red Cross or to allow visits by its inspectors. Its prisoners have 'disappeared,' like the victims of some dictatorships." -- The Washington Post.
Why did we bother to beat the Soviet Union if we were just going to become it? Shame. Shame. Shame. Read more in the Molly Ivins archive.
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Vive Le Canada. This country is not for sale.
