Moral Code

thunder_runner32 wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
So by killing someone, you prevent them from burning in hell?

(To answer your question, I would prefer not being killed. Whether I am going to hell when I die seems an unrelated question.) "

It is not unrelated, my point was to tie them together in the fact that us sinners will pay the price of death, wether in this life or in the after life.

My point with the father punishing the children is that, the punishement is just, and just because he administers it, doesn't mean that he does not love his children. By dealing out the punishment now, we are saved from eternal pain. He forgives us time and time again, I would say that is loving.

I cringe whenever I see discussion of the punishment of children intermingled with biblical talk. You never know how deep the delusions run.

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Commandments from God
She knows it was wrong now, but Deanna Laney was unremorseful and sincerely believed she was carrying out God's will even six days after she stoned two of her sons to death last year, jurors learned from a videotaped interview Thursday.

Source

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Good luck on your work, Dog.

Thanks. I'll need it. My "work" involves my 13 y.o. daughter, who is in a hormonally-dysfunctional point in her life. (Which I'm sure most of you are aware of what that's like!) She has an intellectual soul and a ravenous desire to make the world we live in - make sense, at least to her. Thus her questions range from Ephesians to amendments to invertebrates to Algebra2. This is a formative time for her and like with my oldest, I am allowing and encouraging her to find her own way. Her innocentness is refreshing, yet scary. We are very close and she completely trusts me, which of course makes my job as Dad all the harder. No complaints though, it's all good.

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I am inclined to agree that the link between the biblical "commandments" and the substance of U.S. law...is tenuous at best.

Frank: LOL! I won a dollar on your answer. Your 50% is in the mail!! Seriously, in the most literal sense, I agree with you. However on a basic level, I feel the link is largely accurate in my statement. "Thou shalt not murder, thou shalt not steal..." I hear your point though!

Mesquite: I will respond to your post. Too many irons in the fire at the moment, but will get to it.

BTW: I'm enjoying the tangential discussions involving this topic. I'm still not sure that I conveyed my question/message very well because it doesn't seem to have been answered - or perhaps it hasn't been answered in the words I'd like to hear! :wink: I will respond again, as time permits.

BD1

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bump

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Quote:

I cringe whenever I see discussion of the punishment of children intermingled with biblical talk. You never know how deep the delusions run.

The system would work if everyone followed it...

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Everyone following it is my concern.

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Why? Think about a civilization based on the ten commandments...

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Sure, punish the kids four generations deep for the iniquities of the parents. What a marvelous idea!

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Mesquite is correct, Thunder.

The first of those "commandments" that seem so important these days to Christians, is:

"I, the Lord, am your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. You shall not have other gods besides me. You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth; you shall not bow down before them or worship them. For I, the Lord, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishments for their fathers' wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generation, but bestowing mercy, down to the thousandth generation, on the children of those who love me and keep my commandments." Deuteronomy 5:6ff

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How about you respond to what I actually wrote, and quit dodging it? The penalty on sin is death, children are sinners as well...nobody is excluded, but those who ask for forgiveness, are granted it.

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thunder_runner32 wrote:

How about you respond to what I actually wrote, and quit dodging it? The penalty on sin is death...

Sez you...or sez the folks who wrote the stuff you accept in order to sez this.

But the fact remains...there may not even be a God...and without a God...there can be no sin. Sin, after all, is simply something a human does that offends a god.

Best guess: The notion that "sin" is the reason people die is something that superstitious ancients might invent so that they had an explanation for this mysterious, and terrifying natural prossess.

Chances are...people die, sin or no sin, because all things die.

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...children are sinners as well

Well for certain, Christian children are sinners, because the Christian god is offended by just about everything humans do...including, apparently, even the stuff little children do.

Something is very, very wrong with your god, Thunder.

It has major problems.

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...nobody is excluded, but those who ask for forgiveness, are granted it.

Hey, if the god is all that generous...willing to forgive humans for being human...why go through the process of calling what they do "sin"...and then asking them to "ask for forgiveness"...and then forgiving them?

Why not just cut to the chase and NOT GET OFFENDED?

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Well if the humans would play nicely together, there would be no sin anyways....who do you blame for breaking the rules? The rulemaker, or the rulebreaker? If we would just follow the friggin rules, there would be no reason for punishment, eh?

Oh, and I'd be willing to put money on the fact that disobedient children will no better obey the rules of society when they are all growed up.

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Thunder,

I can see you are having a bit of trouble here. I have run into the same trouble myself with some of these posters.

ebrown, I don't understand why you lump all Christians into one certain category. Not all Christians are as you have described. You use the statement the Christians of today and then later you say what some Christians believe and don't. I am afraid I am a bit confused by you.

The teachings of Christ are what, I, as a Christian of today do go by. Now, whether I believe in capital punishment, gun control, etc., really doesn't have a lot to do with it. We are told to render unto Caesar, which means we do what the law says. We are to obey the laws of the land. Do I believe in capital punishment? In some cases yes. I would say those such as Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy, Andre Chicatilo (spelling?) and child molesters would deserve the death penalty. Does that mean I think everyone that kills should get the death penalty? No. You have to take each individual situation as it is. Life is way too complicated to just give it a generalization.

It's like that guy that just killed two sex offenders. He was wrong in doing that. I understand his frustration with the law that they were not in jail where they obviously belonged, but you can't just go around breaking the law because you think it should be different.

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thunder_runner32 wrote:

Well if the humans would play nicely together, there would be no sin anyways....who do you blame for breaking the rules?
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If you have rules and someone breaks them...you blame the person who broke the rules.

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The rulemaker, or the rulebreaker?

Unless you can tell me why we humans should be following rules made up by people who lived thousands of years ago...the problem is not whether to blame the rulemaker or the rulebreaker...

...but rather...who gets to make the rules.

I suggest we get to make the rules...not Zeus.

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If we would just follow the friggin rules, there would be no reason for punishment, eh?

Okay. But what does that have to do with this discussion?

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Oh, and I'd be willing to put money on the fact that disobedient children will no better obey the rules of society when they are all growed up.

And so they should be stoned to death???????

"If a man has a stubborn and unruly son who will not listen to
his father or mother, and will not obey them even though they
chastise him, his father and mother shall have him apprehended
and brought out to the elders at the gate of his home city, where
...his fellow citizens shall stone him to death." Deuteronomy 22:18ff

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Quote:

"If a man has a stubborn and unruly son who will not listen to
his father or mother, and will not obey them even though they
chastise him, his father and mother shall have him apprehended
and brought out to the elders at the gate of his home city, where
...his fellow citizens shall stone him to death." Deuteronomy 22:18ff

Who? What it actually says here is that if a man has an unruly son, the father of this man, (the unruly kid's grandfather), should take his son(the father of the unruly one) and have him stoned. The unruly kid himself is off the hook.

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Cyracuz wrote:

Quote:
"If a man has a stubborn and unruly son who will not listen to
his father or mother, and will not obey them even though they
chastise him, his father and mother shall have him apprehended
and brought out to the elders at the gate of his home city, where
...his fellow citizens shall stone him to death." Deuteronomy 22:18ff

Who? What it actually says here is that if a man has an unruly son, the father of this man, (the unruly kid's grandfather), should take his son(the father of the unruly one) and have him stoned. The unruly kid himself is off the hook.

Obviously that is not what the writer meant...but I thank you for pointing out that the people who wrote the book...and/or those who interpreted them...were not especially careful with their language.

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No, it means that the elders of the village will make a judgement on the child.

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Unless you can tell me why we humans should be following rules made up by people who lived thousands of years ago...the problem is not whether to blame the rulemaker or the rulebreaker...

...but rather...who gets to make the rules.

I suggest we get to make the rules...not Zeus.

We are talking in terms of the bible, which requires the recognition that God makes the rules. Personally, I don't see what's wrong with rules in the bible.

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If we would just follow the friggin rules, there would be no reason for punishment, eh?

Okay. But what does that have to do with this discussion?

We were talking about rules, so I figured it was sort of relevant...

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thunder_runner32 wrote:

No, it means that the elders of the village will make a judgement on the child.

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Unless you can tell me why we humans should be following rules made up by people who lived thousands of years ago...the problem is not whether to blame the rulemaker or the rulebreaker...

...but rather...who gets to make the rules.

I suggest we get to make the rules...not Zeus.

We are talking in terms of the bible, which requires the recognition that God makes the rules. Personally, I don't see what's wrong with rules in the bible.

Well...Thunder...the problem is that it makes a lot more sense to guess that the "rules" that we find in the Bible...are not the "rules" of a God...but rather the rules of a bunch of primative, superstitious ancient humans.

If it turns out that is what they are...there is plenty wrong with following them blindly.

And you recognize that. So you really should stop pretending that you don't.

Unless, of course, you actually think we should stone people to death for disobeying their mother and father...for engaging in homosexual activity...or for any of the other myriad things the cartoon god of the Bible suggests require a death penalty.

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If we would just follow the friggin rules, there would be no reason for punishment, eh?

Okay. But what does that have to do with this discussion?

We were talking about rules, so I figured it was sort of relevant...

Well it isn't!

If the rules say you should slaughter every last male of any enemy you vanquish...you should simply disregard that rule. If the rule says you should stone to death a child who refuses to obey its parents...you should disregard that rule. If the rule says you should kill anyone who happens to be sexually attracted to same sex partners and acts on it...you should disregard that rule.

C'mon, Thunder. You are more intelligent than these last few posts.

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Frank,

You cannot be argued with on this point if you ONLY use the Old Testament. Yes, that is what the Old Testament says. But, if you can accept or even argue that this is or may be true, why can you not do the same of the New Testament?

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Momma Angel wrote:

Frank,

You cannot be argued with on this point if you ONLY use the Old Testament. Yes, that is what the Old Testament says. But, if you can accept or even argue that this is or may be true, why can you not do the same of the New Testament?

Who says I can't, MA? Who says I haven't?

I hope not you...because not only can I argue that way from the New Testament...I have!

Here...allow me to do it again.

The admonition I cited is from Deuteronomy:

"If a man has a stubborn and unruly son who will not listen to
his father or mother, and will not obey them even though they
chastise him, his father and mother shall have him apprehended
and brought out to the elders at the gate of his home city, where
...his fellow citizens shall stone him to death." Deuteronomy 22:18ff

Here are two more...one from Deuteronomy and one from Leviticus:

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be
put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their
lives." Leviticus 20:13

"When you march up to attack a city, first offer terms of peace.
If it agrees to your terms of peace and opens its gates to you,
all the people to be found in it shall serve you in forced labor.
But if it refuses to make peace with you and instead offers you
battle, lay siege to it, and when the Lord, your God, delivers it
into your hand, put every male in it to the sword, but the women
and children and livestock and all else in it that is worth
plunder you may take as your booty and you may use this plunder
of your enemies which the Lord, your God, has given you." Deuteronomy 20:10

As you know...Leviticus IS the "LAW" of the Old Testament...and Deuteronomy IS the "SECOND LAW" (not a second law, but a second telling and explanation of the "LAW" OF Leviticus.)

Now...here is a quote from none other than Jesus Christ...taken from the New Testament:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets. I have come, not abolish them, but to fulfill them. Of this much I assure you: UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, NOT THE SMALLEST LETTER OF THE LAW, NOT THE SMALLEST PART OF A LETTER, SHALL BE DONE AWAY WITH UNTIL IT ALL COME TRUE." Matthew 5: 17ff

So...everything I argue from the Old Testament...I am, according to Jesus, arguing from the New Testament also.

But, MA...surely you've heard me argue that before!

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Yes Frank. I have heard you argue that before. And perhaps I used a poor choice of words. Let me put it this way, I do not feel you have an effective argument as you do not appear to understand the balance of the Old and New Testament. You continually (especially with this particular point) still to the letter of the word and seem to take nothing else into view.

If you want to take certain points so literally, why not take some postive things literally? You only seem to point out negatives. When assessing any given situation, person, etc., do you only look at just one side of it? Do you not take the whole picture and circumstances into consideration and then come to a conclusion?

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