Moral Code

I will try and answer from an "unbeliever"'s standpoint...

For whatever reason we have found ourselves on this planet we call Earth. Over thousands of years of trial and error, we have found that there are constants that provide for decent living, for most people...those being respect, compassion, love, etc.
Basically, things that make us get along better, are in-turn better for each person as an individual.

Also, the of "I will scratch your back, If you scratch mine" tends to work better than greediness and betrayal.

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The morality that Christians follow has very little to do with the words of Christ (or any other part of the Bible).

Most Christians in the US today believe in a morality that is a holdover from the pre Civil war Confederate south.

Support for Capital Punishment
Gun Rights
Support of War
Taking away the right to Bankruptcy
Unwillingness to offer forgive for "illegal" migrant workers.
Support of the Castle provision.
Taking away aid for the poor.

The religion and moral values followed by todays Christians have very little to do with the life or words of the Biblical Jesus.

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Those who have willingly twisted the words of the bible, will be judged accordingly.

Capital punishment is advised in the bible
Gun Rights?
War is advised when it is justified
Etc. Do a little research please.

You must also remember that the U.S is not a theocracy...

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Quote:

Capital punishment is advised in the bible.

Thunder... I specifically said "the words of Jesus". Part of the problem with claiming a Bible based morality is that you can use that to justify near anything.

Genocide is "advised" in the Bible. So is killing women who can't pass a purity test (by means of gathering a group of men and battering her to death with stones. Slavery is permissible in the Bible.

But the words of Jesus are clear (and supported by the letters of Paul)...

Read Matthew 5:38-48 and explain where capital punishment fits in. Jesus said "Love your enemies"... explain how people who believe this can support war?

Remember as you answer that if there is a Biblical standard to morality, it means that everyone who follows that standard will have the same view of morality. This is the very definition of standard.

But compare the moral beliefs of modern day Christianity with the beliefs of the Confederacy. Except for a change in racial views (although churches are still the most segregated institution in the US), they are nearly the same.

I have done quite a bit of research on this (I was a "bible-believing" Christian for years).

I know who the biblical Christ is, and I know what todays Christians are like.

There is very little similarity between the two.

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The customs of people long ago, were based highly in the fact people, on the whole, were much better than today, and that many governments were based on religious teachings.

I never said that Christians are "Christ like", we cannot be...but we can strive everyday to be more like him.

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thunder_runner32 wrote:

The customs of people long ago, were based highly in the fact people, on the whole, were much better than today, and that many governments were based on religious teachings.

I never said that Christians are "Christ like", we cannot be...but we can strive everyday to be more like him.

You don't know much history, do you.

People during the time of Christ were under the Roman Empire. They had slavery, brutal customs like forced gladitorial combat, and they practiced genocide. Abortion was practices and was not even an issue since a father could kill his children even after they were born. And, as the Bible points out, people were crucified at the whim of a governor even when they were innocent.

Furthermore banditry in the occupied areas (like the area that Jesus lived in) was quite common.

To say that Christians today don't need to follow the teachings of Jesus because times today are less moral is ridiculous.

Times were much less moral in those days by any measure of morality.

But I don't understand why it matters-- Love your enemies means Love your enemies.

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"But I don't understand why it matters-- Love your enemies means Love your enemies. "

Can not a loving father, punish his children, for the good of his children?

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thunder_runner32 wrote:

"But I don't understand why it matters-- Love your enemies means Love your enemies. "

Can not a loving father, punish his children, for the good of his children?

The topic was capital punishment. Are you claiming that you can kill someone for their own good?

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Would you rather be punished by man, or burn in hell for eternity. The wage for sin is death.

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So by killing someone, you prevent them from burning in hell?

(To answer your question, I would prefer not being killed. Whether I am going to hell when I die seems an unrelated question.)

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baddog1 wrote:

Frank - Thanks for bringing this to my attention. Sorry for the confusion. I was juggling two separate thoughts and unknowingly (unwittingly) transposed my message. Following is my correction: "...And American Law was written based on the Commandments." [I am also in the midst of a study on the 1st amendment hence the mix-up!]

BD1

baddog1, if you are studying the 1st amendment, then it should have been readily apparent that four of the commandments are in direct conflict with it.

"1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

Ignoring this, our government has not outlawed Hinduism. That's understandable, since the First Amendment directly contradicts the First Commandment.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

"2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them..."

The first amendment does not allow us to create laws prohibiting the free exercise of religion.

"3. You shall not take the name of the Lord, your God, in vain."

We have repealed our blasphemy laws, which discriminated against non-Christian religions. Our free-speech laws directly contradict this Commandment. See first amendment.

"4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:"

Same as above, would be a violation of the first amendment

Could you tell me which American law applies to adultery?

Could you tell me which American law applies to honoring parents?

Could you tell me which American law applies to coveting?

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thunder_runner32 wrote:

"But I don't understand why it matters-- Love your enemies means Love your enemies. "

Can not a loving father, punish his children, for the good of his children?

And this means what?????

If it is meant to apply to the god of the Bible...and the punishments it metes out...you are on dangerous terrain.

In order for a father to punish his children to the same degree the god of the Bible punishes people who don't toe the mark...

..the father would have to administer his punishment with a sledge hammer or a pick ax.

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thunder_runner32 wrote:

Would you rather be punished by man, or burn in hell for eternity. The wage for sin is death.

These folks pretend to love a god who has as a punishment to be tortured excruciatingly and unrelentingly for all the rest of eternity.

Certainly no sparer of the rod...this god!

What an abomination.

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thunder_runner32 wrote:

I will try and answer from an "unbeliever"'s standpoint...

For whatever reason we have found ourselves on this planet we call Earth. Over thousands of years of trial and error, we have found that there are constants that provide for decent living, for most people...those being respect, compassion, love, etc.
Basically, things that make us get along better, are in-turn better for each person as an individual.

Also, the of "I will scratch your back, If you scratch mine" tends to work better than greediness and betrayal.

Actually, Thunder...you did a very good job here. I would have mentioned the notion of allowing society to function also...but...

...you did a very good job.

Get out from under the yoke. You would make a fine agnostic.

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mesquite: My current study of the 1st amendment has to do with a project totally unrelated to this site, however I will consider your statements as they associate. I will also cover the rest of your post at that time. Thanks for the info.

BD1

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baddog1 wrote:

mesquite: My current study of the 1st amendment has to do with a project totally unrelated to this site, however I will consider your statements as they associate. I will also cover the rest of your post at that time. Thanks for the info.

BD1

Good luck on your work, Dog.

I am inclined to agree that the link between the biblical "commandments" and the substance of U.S. law...is tenuous at best.

Every society...has to have laws in place that protect society's existence...or we'd have chaos. To suppose laws against stealing, murder, or perjury...are attributable to the "commandments" rather than common sense is a stretch. Fact is, laws and taboos against stealing, murder, and (perhaps) perjury...may very well pre-date the biblical texts.

And as Mesquite points out...many of the "commandments" are entirely ignored. Others have laws directly opposed to them.

If you are studying this stuff in a school setting...I hope you raise many of these points with your instructors.

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Quote:

Every society...has to have laws in place that protect society's existence...or we'd have chaos. To suppose laws against stealing, murder, or perjury...are attributable to the "commandments" rather than common sense is a stretch. Fact is, laws and taboos against stealing, murder, and (perhaps) perjury...may very well pre-date the biblical texts.

Yep - the Code of Hammurabi 1780 BCE

http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/MESO/CODE.HTM

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/hamcode.html

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"So by killing someone, you prevent them from burning in hell?

(To answer your question, I would prefer not being killed. Whether I am going to hell when I die seems an unrelated question.) "

It is not unrelated, my point was to tie them together in the fact that us sinners will pay the price of death, wether in this life or in the after life.

My point with the father punishing the children is that, the punishement is just, and just because he administers it, doesn't mean that he does not love his children. By dealing out the punishment now, we are saved from eternal pain. He forgives us time and time again, I would say that is loving.

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thunder_runner32 wrote:

ebrown_p wrote:
So by killing someone, you prevent them from burning in hell?

(To answer your question, I would prefer not being killed. Whether I am going to hell when I die seems an unrelated question.) "

It is not unrelated, my point was to tie them together in the fact that us sinners will pay the price of death, wether in this life or in the after life.

My point with the father punishing the children is that, the punishement is just, and just because he administers it, doesn't mean that he does not love his children. By dealing out the punishment now, we are saved from eternal pain. He forgives us time and time again, I would say that is loving.

Look. The question was... "why do Christians support capital punishment?"

Capital punishment means killing someone because of a crime they commited. I raised this issue to point out that if Christians followed the words of Christ which include:
- Loving your enemies.
- Not returning evil for evil-- but answering evil with good.
- Forgiving as you have been forgiven.
- Not resisting evil.

The points you are making don't answer the question at all. You seem to be saying that a loving father would kill his children (when talking about capital punishment we are talking about killing people).

Your points might make sense if you thought the criminals that we kill are saved from hell by the mere act of them being executed. This would mean that by executing them, we were getting them into heaven meaning that killing people would be a loving thing to do. I don't think you are saying this.

The point I am making is that the "Christians" of today follow a religion (and live a life) that has next to nothing to do with the life or teachings of Christ. If Jesus is the definition of morality, than very often Christians today are the least moral people around.

The religion you call Christianity (and presumably follow) is not from the Jesus in the Bible. It is based on the culture of the pre Civil war South.

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[quote="thunder_runner32]My point with the father punishing the children is that, the punishement is just, and just because he administers it, doesn't mean that he does not love his children. By dealing out the punishment now, we are saved from eternal pain. He forgives us time and time again, I would say that is loving.[/quote]

Well...any "god" that would conceive of a punishment like unrelenting, excruciating torture throughout all the rest of eternity...is probably not a very "forgiving" god...

...so your constant exhortations that your god is "loving" sound more to me as though you are trying to convince yourself of that.

Fact is...it appears that you are guessing there is a GOD...you are guessing the GOD cares about what we humans do...you are guessing that doing the wrong things can land you in hell suffering eternal torture...and you are guessing that the god is a loving god.

You really ought to rethink all of those guesses.

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