1
   

The Human Condition and the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics

 
 
yitwail
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2005 10:35 pm
that's a BookMark, probably.
0 Replies
 
Kinch
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2005 10:37 pm
Quote:
It is instinctive to hoard resources. Sharing (other than feeding offspring) generally has to be learned. If you don't believe that, spend time with young children. Or watch birds at a feeder or predators with their kill. Even when they have far more than they could possibly eat themselves, they do not willingly share.
Quote:


The Bonobos share their food with all members of the group (generally) so that shoudl address your first point. As for your 'proof', I have worked with a lot of young children and have found that they are very good natured and tend to share rather than be selfish. The problem occurs when children who have not been shown enough nurturing interact with others, this is when the fights emerge. As for your other examples, they are irrelevant. The bahaviour of birds and predators, like lions, has little to no bearing on a discussion of human development.
0 Replies
 
Kinch
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2005 10:47 pm
Okay, I read through the ideas you posted. I find them completely silly.

Here's why:

Right off the bat it starts with an assumption that 'the human condition' is some problem to be solved.
The human condition is what I call life.
The way I see it is: if you continue to live, and live well, then the 'human condition' is nothing more than an intellectual idea. What you do everyday, how you see the world, how you live: this is what ensures survival.
If what you are doing means you are not surviving, then the problem is not the 'human condition' but cultural.

This guy is starting off with his head in his azz.
Humanity was not born flawed and incomplete; however the "great philosophies and religions" you listed teach that we are.
That is the 'thought' that created the 'so-called' problem to begin with.

Salvation and answers to the human condition are not needed for people who know they were born onto the earth with everything they need.

thanks[/quote]

I will not go into a list of all the terrible things happening to people around the world as we speak to demonstate that there is a problem but I think you should consider that it is very easy in our priveleged position upon this earth to pretend everything is fine.

The argument here is not that humanity was 'born' (are you a creationist?) flawed and incomplete but that we have been in a chaotic state of our evolution as the result of the development of consciousness.

As for your remarks about religions being the cause of the human condition (an admission that it exists?) the three major religions (Christianity, Buddhism and Islam) only developed in the last 6 000 years or so, how do you explain conflicts preceding this time?
On that same point this theory does not support religions outright, it concedes that they have played a role in the human journey by being a kind of social conscience for man. Religions, however, have had a lot of problems because they did not solve the human condition but only pointed it out. This meant that they accused humans of being bad, rather than explaining why, despite appearances, we are actually good. The fact that religions did not explain the human condition has also led to many of them developing fundamentalist sects.

i agree (to an extent) that sound people. people who 'know they were born onto this earth with everything they need' don't really need saving but I think you overestimate how many of those people there are and you are, perhaps, being a little unscientific about the reasons they are that way.
0 Replies
 
Kinch
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2005 10:53 pm
flushd wrote:
p.s.

I think this guy, Griffin's, theory is great example of 'the Fall'.
People thinking they can rule like gods, and have the wisdom of gods.


Could you please explain how Griffin's ? (who is Griffin?) is an example of the fal;, I think his theory explains the myth of the Fall itself.
0 Replies
 
Kinch
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2005 10:56 pm
Ray wrote:
Yeah I was wondering that too, wasn't the second law suppose to mean that thing tend to go in the direction of maximum entropy?


Yes, an example of this is the sun, which is moving in the direction of maximum entropy as it loses energy. In an ultimate sense negative entropy is not relevant, eventually all things will move into thermodynamic equilibrium (so the theory goes and I tend to agree) but in an open system like the earth which receives energy from the sun entropy can be reversed (negative entropy) until the outside energy source runs out of energy itself.
Kinch
0 Replies
 
Ray
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Sep, 2005 12:24 am
No, see that might be the mistake.

Entropy in Wikipedia

Quote:
The total entropy of an isolated system can never decrease.
Since its discovery, the idea that disorder tends to increase has been the focus of a great deal of thought, some of it confused. A chief point of confusion is the fact that the Second Law applies only to isolated systems. For example, the Earth is not an isolated system because it is constantly receiving energy in the form of sunlight. Nevertheless, it has been pointed out that the universe may be considered an isolated system, so that its total disorder should be constantly increasing. We will discuss the implications of this idea in the section on Entropy and cosmology.



The Earth is part of an isolated system. It might still be controversial, someone with more knowledge of physics would explain better.
0 Replies
 
Ray
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Sep, 2005 01:03 am
Quote:
I agree with you that if a child is not nurtured or socialized enough they can be' 'brutalized' into killers, selfish people etc. but this begs the question, if these people were brutalized into this condition, the parents who did this to them must also have been 'brutalized, and their parents and theirs etc. etc. and it had to begin somewhere, this theory offers the only explanation I can find for this conundrum of human nature.


I don't understand. If a person turns out to be a killer, he or she might have had bad childhood experiences that took over their rational mind. It does not necessarily mean that their parents were brutalized, etc.

Quote:
Just in case anyone is not sure what I mean by the human condition I will give a brief explanation. All humanity feels that the right way to act is co-operatively, lovingly and integratively (if anyone would like to scoff at this punch yourself in the nose and then do so) however looking around us we see a world of war, destruction, hatred, depression, drug abuse, rape, destruction of the environment etc. etc. This is the fundamental problem of the human condition. All the great philosophies, religions and a few of the more thoughtful scientists have dealt with this problem directly. It has led to all manner of concepts, including God (or Allah or Brahma etc.) the soul, the ultimate form of the good, and (dare I say it?) the Ubermensch, but is there a scientific explanation for this hellish state of affairs?


Don't you think there are a lot of reasons why these negative events are occuring? There are wars because people do not come to an agreement over something, or because the "brutalized" people are in power over the military. In these cases often you would see an "us" vs. "them" mentality.
There are also psychological theories as to sociopathic/psychopathic and paraphilic behaviours in people, and I don't see the theory mentioning any of it.

Quote:
His solution to this age old question of The Fall is deceptively simple and rather profound. Basically when the nerve-networks in the brain become complex enough they can associate past and present events and begin to 'understand' the world in a way that most animals do not (to the same extent). Griffith says that this ability developed fully in our species about 2 million years ago and that when this happened, the human condition emerged. The problem was that, unlike the genetic learning system, the nerve-based learning system in a fully conscious animal does not have an established way of behaving, it needs to learn for itself. Ineveitably, this led to humans, far back in our remote past, experimenting in self management. This seems innocent enough but the problem was that our instincts, not being insighful, could not possibly understand that the conscious mind or intellect had to search for knowledge. This meant that whenever our ancient ancestors would attempt to self manage, and inadvertantly go against their instincts (even something as simple as leaving their home to explore or hording fruit for themselves instead of sharing) they would face opposition from their instinctive self or 'conscience'. This conscience would have felt like a parent saying 'You're bad' and, having no way to explain what he was doing, our ancestor would have had to prove his worth by experimenting further and lashing out against those who were not yet 'sinning' or going against their instincts. This situation led to a rejection and eventual hatred of the instinctive or 'innocent' self and attacks on everything that represented it - nature, women, children and, ultimately, their 'true' instinctive selves.


I'm sorry but I can't agree with this. The endeavor for knowledge usually does not go against anyone's conscience unless the endeavor involved something morally wrong. I can see a person questioning his or her belief because he or she understands that what he or she was taught might not be correct, but I can't see a well-minded person to abandon his conscience in questioning his knowledge. I've been through this before, and I came to the conclusion that sides with the moral spectrum. As I've concluded from my rational and empirical analysis, I come to the belief that morality has in it a basis of truth. Hence from my experience, learning was the best way that I enhanced my moral understanding.

To my understanding, the human condition you mentioned is a result of an emphasis of importance in oneself over another person's. It does not have to do with knowledge, but it's an evolutionary leftover of the basic reward-punishment mentality of the primitive species.
0 Replies
 
AngeliqueEast
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Sep, 2005 01:09 am
Kinch wrote:
AngeliqueEast wrote:
BM


pardon?


Yes, it's a book mark. I'm interested in the thread, and just want to read but not participate. Some people BM, and participate
0 Replies
 
yitwail
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Sep, 2005 01:15 am
Re: The Human Condition and the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics
Kinch wrote:
This meant that whenever our ancient ancestors would attempt to self manage, and inadvertantly go against their instincts (even something as simple as leaving their home to explore or hording fruit for themselves instead of sharing) they would face opposition from their instinctive self or 'conscience'. This conscience would have felt like a parent saying 'You're bad' and, having no way to explain what he was doing, our ancestor would have had to prove his worth by experimenting further and lashing out against those who were not yet 'sinning' or going against their instincts.

He also claims that humanity (apart from a few) is living in an almost total denial of their instinctive self or 'soul' because the instinctive memory of their integrated, loving past is too depressing in light of their divisive, hateful present.


i had time on my hands so i even visited the link you provided. i still would like to see you clarify a couple of your points, which i've quoted. first, how is the self-managing ancestral human supposed to be receiving messages from a non-verbal instinctual self? a parent saying "you're bad" isn't a great analogy to use for a hominid that lacked language. that's not a mere assertion by the way: homininds of 2 million years ago lacked the vocal apparatus for speech, let alone brain structures like Broca's area & Wernicke's area. the most i can accept is that going against instinct would result in some physical discomfort, which seems more likely to result in a decline of that behavior, rather than an escalation.

i also have difficulty with your notion of an "instinctive memory." an instinct is reflexive behavior that occurs automatically when the right conditions are present, and unless there's some neurological damage, it can't be consciously repressed, yet you suggest just that when you state that humanity is in denial of it.
0 Replies
 
yitwail
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Sep, 2005 01:22 am
spendius wrote:
JJ-

How did we humans learn to place lines like that on a thread and keep them under wraps in a pub close to the last bell.


Since JJ is too modest to reply, may I suggest it's a gift? (to humanity, perhaps)
0 Replies
 
Ray
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Sep, 2005 01:45 am
I don't understand JJ...
0 Replies
 
Kinch
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Sep, 2005 07:44 am
Re: The Human Condition and the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics
It is true that hominids 2 million years ago had no speech, speech developed as the need to find and express understandings about the world became more and more imperative (culinating in modern science).
You are correct naturally there would not have been a verbal message from the instinctive self, the whole point is that the instinct was 'ignorant' in a sense and could not understand the growing curiosity of our ancestors. The result of going against the instinct would have been a bad feeling a 'twinge of conscience', and yes it seems as if this may have led to a decrease in self management but, evidently, it did not. I do not think that our ancestors could really stop their curiosity once it began. As it is widely acknowledge that our instincts are co-operatively orientated it is fair to say tha this behaviour must have escalated as the human world today is a highly divisive, violent and alienated one.

'Instinctive memory' would perhaps be better phrased as 'instinctive expectation' a child comes into the world geared for co-operation and find a world full of hate and division which leads to the continuance of the psychosis.
And yes, the instinct is not repressed as such, but is (depending on many factors) ignored to a certain degree. Griffith outlines how this explains various stages in human life, the most significant occuring at around the age of 15 (again this depends on many factors) when a teenager, after going through the introverted, withdrawn and deeply depressed state most young people experience during high school eventually resigns themself and says 'that's just the way the world is' or (and this is more and more the case) kill themself because they lack explanation for why the world and themselves cannot behave properly.

I hope I have addressed your questions adequately, but feel free to point out if I have not. Thanks for the criricism, keeps me thinking.
Kinch
0 Replies
 
yitwail
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Sep, 2005 09:14 am
Re: The Human Condition and the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics
Kinch wrote:
As it is widely acknowledge that our instincts are co-operatively orientated it is fair to say tha this behaviour must have escalated as the human world today is a highly divisive, violent and alienated one.

I hope I have addressed your questions adequately, but feel free to point out if I have not. Thanks for the criricism, keeps me thinking.
Kinch


you're welcome, and i thank you for considering my remarks seriously, despite the non-standard capitalization. in your reply to Terry you made the same claim that the instinctive basis of cooperative behavior in our species is widely acknowledged. i don't think you would suggest that this belief is universal; observations such as "the world is governed by self-interest" indicate some dissension. moreover, prevalence of a belief is no guarantee of its correctness. so, what evidence is there that cooperation is instinctual in humans? your remarks suggest to me that the main evidence is analogy with Bonobos. i don't find that convincing, especially since you proposed that upright posture was a key factor in the development of this instinct in humans, whereas Bonobos lack upright posture.
0 Replies
 
John Jones
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Sep, 2005 12:52 pm
Kinch wrote:
quote]
..humans have an instinctive orientation to co-operation and selfless behaviour, [...] If you are hungry and have the desire to eat that is instinctive,



To say that 'I have an instinctive orientation to co-operate' might mean this:
Whether or not I am conscious of co-operating, it means that there is some force (instinct) that makes me do it. This force (instinct) cannot be a feeling. If it was a feeling I would feel forced to co-operate, and in that case, I could not be said to be co-operating from choice. But if instinct is not a force, and if it is not a feeling, then what else could we mean by it?

On the other hand, if you say that feelings of good-will (or desire, etc) are instinctive and force us to be good, then we are led to this idea: 'feelings force us to do things'. But this says that mind must affect matter. But as instinct is presumed to be physically based, then instinct must cause our feelings - we are brought to a contradiction.

The best prospect would be to abandon the term 'instinct'. It never does any good to introduce new terms in an attempt to facilitate explanation or elucidation. Particularly, the term instinctive 'orientation' is somewhat of a contradiction itself. We would not suppose that matter, as the basis of instinct, could have orientations or preferences. The problem with the term 'instinct' is that it tries to unite mind and matter in one term, but mind and matter cannot be so merged. The term 'instinct' is historically important but I would dump it.
0 Replies
 
Ray
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Sep, 2005 12:23 am
Quote:
As it is widely acknowledge that our instincts are co-operatively orientated it is fair to say tha this behaviour must have escalated as the human world today is a highly divisive, violent and alienated one.


But it is less divisive and violent than say in the middle ages. It seems that a movement in education and communication within and between countries have created a less divisive world.

If it's not too much trouble can you explain what you meant by a person's search of knowledge going against this thing you called an instinctive drive?
0 Replies
 
Kinch
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Sep, 2005 03:47 am
Re: The Human Condition and the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics
yitwail wrote:
Kinch wrote:
As it is widely acknowledge that our instincts are co-operatively orientated it is fair to say tha this behaviour must have escalated as the human world today is a highly divisive, violent and alienated one.

I hope I have addressed your questions adequately, but feel free to point out if I have not. Thanks for the criricism, keeps me thinking.
Kinch


you're welcome, and i thank you for considering my remarks seriously, despite the non-standard capitalization. in your reply to Terry you made the same claim that the instinctive basis of cooperative behavior in our species is widely acknowledged. i don't think you would suggest that this belief is universal; observations such as "the world is governed by self-interest" indicate some dissension. moreover, prevalence of a belief is no guarantee of its correctness. so, what evidence is there that cooperation is instinctual in humans? your remarks suggest to me that the main evidence is analogy with Bonobos. i don't find that convincing, especially since you proposed that upright posture was a key factor in the development of this instinct in humans, whereas Bonobos lack upright posture.


I am afraid that the best test of whether or not our instincts are geared towards selflessness and love or divisiveness and aggression is rather subjective. It is shown in the widespread values of humans, not in their behaviour. There are universal values and they are basically versions of Jesus' 'love one another as yourself' motto. The existence of universal values, I believem implies that that these values must go deeper than mere ideas about what we should do - if our instinctive orientation were to be aggressive and egocentric then these would be the universaly values(this, I know, is debatable). Another way of looking at it is even more subjective and it is just, what do you personally feel is the right way to behave - most people (deep down I think all people) would admit that the right way to act is co-operatively. As humans are essentially animals (unique ones, mind you) I think it is fair to say that the only way we could have a universal idea of what is the 'right' way to behave is if this behaviour was instinctive. The statement - 'the world is run by selfishness' is quite true, but selfishness is a result of the conflict between instinct and intellect which pushes humans to have to aquire physical wealth and dominance to assert their value and 'goodness' against the guilt of their conscience.

The analogy to Bonobos has its limitations. Bonobos are not fully upright but they are moreso then the common chimp, they are also younger looking and much more intelligent. Here are some examples from people who have worked with them.

(the first quotes are about the common chimp)

Footage extract 1 from "The New Chimpanzees" 1995, National Geographic.
Narrator: Chimpanzee's once thrived throughout the forests of equatorial Africa while
Bonobos were restricted to the Congo Basin. Today both species survive in
isolated fragments and are studied at a handful of sites. Gombe on the shore on
Lake Tanganyika in Tanzania was where Jane Goodall began her study 35 years
ago.
Fifi is the only chimp still alive from that time with six surviving offspring. Freud,
her eldest is now the dominant male in her group while her younger son, Frodo, is
the largest chimp at Gombe and working his way up the male hierarchy. Freud
now leads the tightly bonded party of males that form the core of the group. Male
chimps stay in the group of their birth and cooperate when there is common cause.
Every week or so the males form a para-military patrol to defend and test the
borders of their territory. In single file and total silence they follow their leader in
search of trespassing neighbours. Hair standing on end they listen for the voices
of their foes.
Each community of male chimps jealously guard their territory and the females in
residence. A stranger turns and flees. Though groups of males rarely engage in
battle an individual caught by a border patrol is at serious risk. In the 1970's, Jane
Goodall described a harrowing chain of events. Her study group split in two, and
over the course of four years, the males of one group systematically hunted down
and brutally killed every adult in the other group. Chilling evidence that warfare is
a painful legacy from our primate forebears.
21
Gombe's steep slopes, the stage for all this high drama, tumble from open
grassland to riverine forest, from the top of the great Rift to the blue basin of
Tanganyika.
Footage extract 2 from "The New Chimpanzees" 1995, National Geographic.
Dr Craig Stanford: Frodo is the best of the Gombe hunters, he's 17 years old and yet he's killed
10% of the colobus population the last three years. It's really quite an incredible…
[Frodo walks past Dr Stanford] animal and a great hunter. That was Frodo.
Narrator: All the hunters, including Frodo, will try to catch a monkey for himself. By
joining forces the chimps hope to strand some monkeys in an isolated tree top
with no route of escape except into the clutches of a chimp.
Dr Craig Stanford: Although we see elements of cooperation at Gombe what we think we are
seeing mainly is individual selfish behaviour by male hunters done within a
communal setting. It's a little bit like a baseball game in that baseball is a
communal game in which individual players are doing their piece and in the end
the end result is going to be success or failure. The more hunters there are the
greater the odds of success and yet each individual hunter is performing selfishly.
Narrator: As the chimps climb up the colobus retreat to the highest branches too slender to
bear a chimp's weight. The male Colobus stand their ground against chimps up to
four times their size. They will even take the offensive, momentarily driving the
chimps back. Holding his tail out of the chimp's reach this male buys precious
time for the escape of the females and young. Excited by the cries of hunter and
prey, females appear below. Eighty feet above the ground Frodo displays his
daring technique, but this time he misses. With chimps climbing everywhere one
monkey leaps into the arms of death. Even a rear attack by the defending colobus
cannot save him.
Footage extract 3 from "The New Chimpanzees" 1995, National Geographic.
Narrator: Sometimes words won't suffice. Males perform displays, dramatic performances
designed to establish their dominance and intimidate rivals. Fearless, Frodo
sometime uses the human researchers to enhance his displays. Even Charlotte has
fallen prey.
Dr Charlotte Uhlenbroek: He'll give me a whack. He'll just kind of add a little flourish by
incorporating me but it's not directed at me. If he wants to hurt somebody he
could have done it.
Narrator: Females and their young are dominated by this threat of force. But when the fruit
crop is ample everyone feasts. A mother's care is the primary influence on a
young chimp's life.
22
Footage extract 4 from "The New Chimpanzees" 1995, National Geographic.
Narrator: An infant chimp may seem secure within the bosom of his group but this is not
always true. A male has stolen a baby chimp from its frantic mother who follows
in desperate pursuit. In the Mahale Mountains south of Gombe, researchers have
recorded this terrible event not once but seven times and are at a loss to explain it.
The Alpha male is now in possession of the screaming infant. He actually beats
back the mother with her own baby. Both mother and baby are members of this
male's group and the infant was presumably sired by one of the group's members.
Males have been known to kill babies sired by outsiders but this kidnapper could
very well be the baby's father. The infant is killed by a bite to the face. Group
members share in the macabre feast just as if it were a monkey. Infanticide and
cannibalism.

(these quotes relate to Bonobos or 'pygmy chimps')

Footage extract 1 from "The New Chimpanzees" 1995, National Geographic.
Narrator: Chimpanzee's once thrived throughout the forests of equatorial Africa while
Bonobos were restricted to the Congo Basin. Today both species survive in
isolated fragments and are studied at a handful of sites. Gombe on the shore on
Lake Tanganyika in Tanzania was where Jane Goodall began her study 35 years
ago.
Fifi is the only chimp still alive from that time with six surviving offspring. Freud,
her eldest is now the dominant male in her group while her younger son, Frodo, is
the largest chimp at Gombe and working his way up the male hierarchy. Freud
now leads the tightly bonded party of males that form the core of the group. Male
chimps stay in the group of their birth and cooperate when there is common cause.
Every week or so the males form a para-military patrol to defend and test the
borders of their territory. In single file and total silence they follow their leader in
search of trespassing neighbours. Hair standing on end they listen for the voices
of their foes.
Each community of male chimps jealously guard their territory and the females in
residence. A stranger turns and flees. Though groups of males rarely engage in
battle an individual caught by a border patrol is at serious risk. In the 1970's, Jane
Goodall described a harrowing chain of events. Her study group split in two, and
over the course of four years, the males of one group systematically hunted down
and brutally killed every adult in the other group. Chilling evidence that warfare is
a painful legacy from our primate forebears.
21
Gombe's steep slopes, the stage for all this high drama, tumble from open
grassland to riverine forest, from the top of the great Rift to the blue basin of
Tanganyika.
Footage extract 2 from "The New Chimpanzees" 1995, National Geographic.
Dr Craig Stanford: Frodo is the best of the Gombe hunters, he's 17 years old and yet he's killed
10% of the colobus population the last three years. It's really quite an incredible…
[Frodo walks past Dr Stanford] animal and a great hunter. That was Frodo.
Narrator: All the hunters, including Frodo, will try to catch a monkey for himself. By
joining forces the chimps hope to strand some monkeys in an isolated tree top
with no route of escape except into the clutches of a chimp.
Dr Craig Stanford: Although we see elements of cooperation at Gombe what we think we are
seeing mainly is individual selfish behaviour by male hunters done within a
communal setting. It's a little bit like a baseball game in that baseball is a
communal game in which individual players are doing their piece and in the end
the end result is going to be success or failure. The more hunters there are the
greater the odds of success and yet each individual hunter is performing selfishly.
Narrator: As the chimps climb up the colobus retreat to the highest branches too slender to
bear a chimp's weight. The male Colobus stand their ground against chimps up to
four times their size. They will even take the offensive, momentarily driving the
chimps back. Holding his tail out of the chimp's reach this male buys precious
time for the escape of the females and young. Excited by the cries of hunter and
prey, females appear below. Eighty feet above the ground Frodo displays his
daring technique, but this time he misses. With chimps climbing everywhere one
monkey leaps into the arms of death. Even a rear attack by the defending colobus
cannot save him.
Footage extract 3 from "The New Chimpanzees" 1995, National Geographic.
Narrator: Sometimes words won't suffice. Males perform displays, dramatic performances
designed to establish their dominance and intimidate rivals. Fearless, Frodo
sometime uses the human researchers to enhance his displays. Even Charlotte has
fallen prey.
Dr Charlotte Uhlenbroek: He'll give me a whack. He'll just kind of add a little flourish by
incorporating me but it's not directed at me. If he wants to hurt somebody he
could have done it.
Narrator: Females and their young are dominated by this threat of force. But when the fruit
crop is ample everyone feasts. A mother's care is the primary influence on a
young chimp's life.
22
Footage extract 4 from "The New Chimpanzees" 1995, National Geographic.
Narrator: An infant chimp may seem secure within the bosom of his group but this is not
always true. A male has stolen a baby chimp from its frantic mother who follows
in desperate pursuit. In the Mahale Mountains south of Gombe, researchers have
recorded this terrible event not once but seven times and are at a loss to explain it.
The Alpha male is now in possession of the screaming infant. He actually beats
back the mother with her own baby. Both mother and baby are members of this
male's group and the infant was presumably sired by one of the group's members.
Males have been known to kill babies sired by outsiders but this kidnapper could
very well be the baby's father. The infant is killed by a bite to the face. Group
members share in the macabre feast just as if it were a monkey. Infanticide and
cannibalism.
Footage extract 1 from "Pygmy Chimpanzee: The Last Great Ape" 1997, BBC.
David Attenborough: In one isolated patch of the Central African Forest in a bend of the Zaire
River lives one of the rarest and least known of all the continent's creatures. It's
an ape, a chimpanzee. But this is no ordinary chimp. It's a bonobo. Bonobo's are
found only here in the remote forests of Zaire. They are also called Pygmy
Chimpanzees, though in fact they are just as tall as the common chimp but they
are more slender and with flatter faces. They are a distinct species perhaps even
closer to our own distant ancestors. This is our nearest living relative.
This group of bonobos includes a remarkable individual, a young male called
Shijimi. His group has been studied for more than 20 years so we know that he is
eight years old and that when he was three he lost his mother. He's an orphan. If
Shijimi were a common chimp he would almost certainly be dead by now. In the
cut and thrust of that society orphans seldom survive unless they are adopted by
another female. But bonobo social life is very different, far more tolerant and
relaxed. Friends can be male or female, young or old and groups are more closely
bound together. This is a peaceful and harmonious society, one in which a
motherless child has at least a chance. But when Shijimi lost his mother he lost
more than a meal ticket.
In apes as in our kind, childhood is a long slow process of learning, getting to
know the world around you and the rules of the society you live in. For a male
bonobo a mother is especially vital. She is the key to his future status in the group.
This young male is still at his mother's breast at six years old and he'll stay in her
group for life. Without a mother Shijimi will have no one to fight his corner.
Females are the dominant force in bonobo society.
So how has he survived and will he ever be more than just a social outcast.
Remarkably he's solved his problem by befriending the group's full-grown males.
There are three of them and Shijimi's gained their acceptance by grooming them.
As well as helping to keep the skin clean and free of parasites, mutual grooming
cements and sustains friendships. If Shijimi had a mother he wouldn't be making
friends with full grown males until much later in his young life. He's had to grow
up fast to fill the void left by his mother's death. Alliances with grown-up males
are no substitute for a mother's tender loving care but if Shijimi's lost his
childhood he does at least have friends and when the going gets tough, that can be
vital.
23
Even in this peaceful society there are tensions. The males have a definite pecking
order and the top male reacts vigorously to any challenge. Shijimi is bundled out
of the way. If he gets caught up in this he could be hurt. Dragging branches
around is a threat, a way of letting off steam. This may look violent but it's mostly
bluff. Actual physical conflict is rare.
Bonobos have one means of defusing tension they use above all else?-sex. Sexual
contact brings the males dispute to a peaceful close. More even than in human
societies, sex has become far more than just a means of reproduction. Everyone
does it with everyone else. Males with males, females with females, adults with
young. And they do it for all sorts of reasons. To greet, to appease, to reassure, to
enhance relationships of all kinds. It's the social cement of bonobo society. The
binding force that keeps the group together.
That togetherness is evident when bonobos set off to look for food. Unlike
common chimps they usually travel as a large compact group and the leader's
almost always a female. She decides when to move and where to go. Females
have a great influence in bonobo society, another contrast with common chimps.
Footage extract 2 from "Pygmy Chimpanzee: The Last Great Ape" 1997, BBC.
David Attenborough: Fruit is high in energy so eating it gives the bonobos time for more social
activities. But it doesn't contain much protein so they have to supplement their
diet with other foods like leaves, stems or pith. By the time Shijimi catches up the
others are already moving on. There's one fruit that's a particular favourite that
makes bonobos go bananas. This is the cause of all the excitement, it's a fruit
called Bolingo. At times like this the pecking order is very clear. The females
have first choice. Even the top male has to wait his turn.
Footage extract 3 from "Pygmy Chimpanzee: The Last Great Ape" 1997, BBC.
David Attenborough: Common chimps are afraid of water. They'll go to any lengths to avoid
getting their feet wet but for bonobos a stream holds no fears. They're looking for
insect larvae, of dragon flies and the like. Though bonobos are more vegetarian
than common chimps they do take animal food; caterpillars, earth worms, birds
eggs, even small mammals.
Footage extract 5 from "The New Chimpanzees" 1995, National Geographic.
Narrator: It is in Africa's dark heart, the Congo Basin that we find the gentler tributary of
our primate legacy. Takayoshi Kano has led the research here in Wamba, Zaire
for the past 22 years. He comes here in search of the second, little known species
of chimpanzee. Sugar cane is the sweet lure used to call down the elusive bonobo.
Dr Kano and his associate Chie Hashimoto have discovered that bonobos are
quite distinct from the chimps studied by Goodall and Boesch. At first glance they
are different. Although they have been called pygmy chimps they're not smaller,
just more slightly built. Hunted elsewhere in Zaire they're safe here but wary still.
The sugar cane buffet proves irresistible. At ease on two legs as well as on four
they simply rise up and walk so their hands are free to carry the cane. Eerily their
24
long shapely limbs and upright gait recall our own prehistoric forebears and their
natural two legged gait is only the first surprise they have in store for us. An
impressively stern female enters and snaps a young sapling. Once she picks
herself up she does something entirely surprising for a female chimp, she
displays, and the males give her sway. For this is the confident stride of the
group's leader, its alpha female, whom Kano has named Halu.
Females play a very different role in bonobo society than they do among chimps.
The reigns of power are shared equally between male and female held by a
strongly bonded group of high ranking mothers and their adult sons. The son of a
dominant female can take great liberties. High ranking females cooperate to
dominate adult males and support their sons in social conflicts. Though tough
with other adults bonobo mothers almost never discipline their babies, even when
they steal the food right out of their mouths.
Footage extract 1 from "Congo: Footprints in the Forest" 2001, BBC.
Narrator: Bonobos are pygmy chimpanzees found only on the south side of the Congo
River. Separated for two million years by this natural barrier, a smaller chimp
species has evolved which is very like our own. These are new age chimps,
caring, sharing apes. Bonobo males and females are of a similar size reflecting
fairly equal roles in their society. They live together in closely knit clans and they
take great care of each other. Psychologists say that mutual grooming like this
may have led to a modern human equivalent: gossiping. Both reinforce social
bonds, show that you care. Bonobos clean each other, we chat about our day to
day lives. Both may be ultimately trivial but a good excuse for intimacy.
The young male bonobos stay with their mother right through to adulthood and
this may help to explain why there is so little male aggression. The males have
great respect for females altogether. These really are touchy, feely apes, very
much at home with their feminine side. It's hardly surprising that feminists have
taken bonobos to their hearts. Females dominate this culture, male aggression has
been tamed.
Footage extract 2 from "Congo: Footprints in the Forest" 2001, BBC.
Narrator: One of the old assumptions about human origins was that we only learned to walk
upright after we came down from the trees and took to the grasslands. But a closer
look at our nearest relatives and especially bonobos suggests a simpler truth. Life
in the trees is a largely bipedal affair already. Maybe this step in our evolution
wasn't such a great leap after all.
Narration regarding "Ultimate Guide: Great Apes" 1996, Discovery Channel.
Narrator: For copyright reasons we are unable to include footage of bonobos from the 1996
documentary "The Ultimate Guide: Great Apes". However, in it Dr Jo Myers
Thompson discusses the differences between common chimpanzees and bonobos.
Dr Thompson explains that the clearest differences can be found in the status of
females.
25
She says a female chimpanzee's life is rugged. They have hardships just in daily
activities. They are probably lower on the hierarchy, the social status, than males
throughout the society and for instance males beat them up, chase them, bully
them around and that doesn't happen in bonobo society. The female bonobos are
not bullied and chased. Although there can be some male aggression, it's very
minor. Female bonobos are never raped as far as we know, they have first choice
at feeding sites. Their life is much more peaceful.
The narrator in this programme then goes on to say the physical difference
between chimps and bonobos are quite telling. Bonobos have shorter, smaller
faces and a more slender physique retaining many of the features seen in juvenile
chimps. They're rather like chimps frozen inside adolescent bodies. Even their
voices are high pitched and child-like. The male aggression that is so common in
chimps is much reduced in bonobos and even relations between neighbouring
groups are often peaceful.
Jo Thompson goes on to add, why do they need to be aggressive? They don't have
to fight for food, they don't have to fight for sex, they don't have to fight for interrelationships,
they don't have to fight for space. Why would they be aggressive?
Footage extract from "Monkey in the Mirror" 1995, BBC.
Narrator: Unlike common chimps bonobos have never been seen to kill their own kind. This
is truly an ape that makes love not war.
Footage extract 1 from "Kanzi: An Ape of Genius" 1993, NHK Productions
Narrator: Georgia State University's Language Research Center, Kanzi's home, is set
among 50 wooded acres just 20 minutes from down town Atlanta. Researchers
here study language development in human children by comparing it with
language development in our close relatives, apes.
Kanzi working on word tests with Dr Rose Sevcik. [Researcher saying words and
Kanzi identifying them on the picture board] Kanzi is distinguishing spoken
words. First the researcher says a word. To answer Kanzi presses a picture symbol
which triggers and electronic voice. These 256 symbols bear no visual
resemblance to test words which include adjectives, verbs, even wishes and
emotions. The board includes abstracts like good and bad. Some human adults
working with Kanzi have taken a year to memorise these symbols and master the
board. [Kanzi doing more word tests with the picture board]
Dr Rose Sevcik: Success! Good job. Good job. And then we'll get some more grapes, how does
that sound! [Kanzi and Dr Sevcik hooting with excitement]
Narrator: Dr Sue Savage-Rumbaugh is one of several people who care for Kanzi at the
Language Research Center. They often prepare their meals together.
26
Dr Sue Savage-Rumbaugh: Here's some cheese. You put that in your tummy this is going to be
for our hot food. Okay I want you to go put the onions in your hot food. I got the
onions in a bowl, lets go and put them in our hot food and we'll come back and
turn the TV on. Get your onions right here and put them in your bowl. [Kanzi puts
onions in saucepan] Look you spilled some of them.
Narrator: Savage-Rumbaugh has monitored Kanzi's language development since soon after
his birth 13 years ago.
Dr Sue Savage-Rumbaugh: Let me get you a spoon to stir it with Kanzi. Stir it up please. [Kanzi
stirs the onions] Will you wash this potato off for me? Could you wash the
potato? With the water. You need to wash it in the water. That's very good.
[Kanzi turns the tap on and washes the potato under the tap] Put some water in
the pan for our noodles. [Kanzi places pan in kitchen sink and turns on water]
More water, more water. Alright your noodles are going to go in here and you can
have a few of them for your tummy. Kanzi could you turn the water off again
please. [Kanzi turns the water off]
Footage extract 2 from "Kanzi: An Ape of Genius" 1993, NHK Productions
Narrator: Then there's Kanzi. Does he really understand what he hears? [Dr Savage-
Rumbaugh stands behind Kanzi so he can't see her and says ?'Kanzi, see if you
can find mushrooms' etc and Kanzi hands her the corresponding picture. Kanzi is
successful in all tests] Obviously Kanzi can choose correct pictures in response to
Sue's voice, but how about other voices, unseen voices?
Dr Rose Sevcik: Kanzi come on. We're all set, we're ready. [Kanzi takes a pair of headphones
from Dr Sevcik and puts them on]
Narrator: With Dr Rose Sevcik putting questions through a microphone Kanzi takes the test
that Austin [a common chimp] failed. Will Kanzi still be able to distinguish
words? [Dr Sevcik says through the microphone in another room ?'Kanzi, give Sue
the picture of juice' etc and Kanzi hands Dr Savage-Rumbaugh the corresponding
picture. Kanzi is successful in all tests] Kanzi has picked up several hundred
words, not through formal training but in daily life with Dr Savage-Rumbaugh
and others.
1980 was the year of Kanzi's birth into the bonobo clan at the Language Research
Center. He was less than a month old when this film was shot. Kanzi is the one
being kissed by a nurturing female called Matata. In bonobo society infants are
passed back and forth among adults. The whole community takes turns
babysitting. But baby Kanzi was happiest with Matata. In the wild adults lavish
affection on the young. Matata was born in the wild. Perhaps that is why she is so
fond of baby Kanzi despite the fact that he is not her offspring. In the end Kanzi
was raised by Matata.
27
Meanwhile researchers were trying to teach Matata words without much success.
She had baby Kanzi with her all the time but they weren't teaching him. They
thought him too little to learn. Then when Kanzi was about two and a half the
unexpected happened. He would say ?'apple' and ?'chase', then he would go over
and pick up an apple and look at the researcher with a smile on his face and start
running around the room. So to everyone's surprise they found that Kanzi was
learning language while they were trying to teach his mother and paying no
attention to Kanzi. What was happening was that he had been learning by
listening to what people said and observing what they did, much as a human child
might. Kanzi amazed his researchers. Apes had been taught language before but
he picked it up on his own.
Dr Sue Savage-Rumbaugh: Go get your ball.
Narrator: Kanzi understands long sentences as well as words. He's no good with lists but
sentences present no problem. Sue dons a welder's mask to prevent him reading
her expression.
Dr Sue Savage-Rumbaugh: I'm going to put on my mask and we're going to try a sentence for
Kanzi okay. Can you hear me Kanzi? [Kanzi squeals. Sue asks him to do different
things like ?'Put the key in the refrigerator', ?'Could you take off Sue's shoe.' Kanzi
is successful in all tests.]
Narrator: What about objects he can't see?
Dr Sue Savage-Rumbaugh: Go get the ball that's outdoors [Kanzi gets the ball.]
Narrator: Sometimes Kanzi applies his own logic. Asked to put water on a carrot he threw it
outdoors. Chided by Sue, he pointed to the rain, the carrot was wet.
A vocabulary of 800 words confers basic English skills. Kanzi has several
hundred.
Footage extract 3 from "Kanzi: An Ape of Genius" 1993, NHK Productions
Narrator: Panbanisha, like Kanzi loves the woods. Over excitement can cause bad
behaviour such as jumping on the dog [Panbanisha jumps on the dog].
Dr Sue Savage-Rumbaugh: Oh Panbanisha! [Sue makes Panbanisha look at the picture board
while she presses the symbol for ?'bad' over and over again]
Narrator: Panbanisha knows she's being scolded. Is this the face of bonobo contrition?
[Panbanisha contemplates what has happened and then presses the symbol for
?'good']
28
Dr Sue Savage-Rumbaugh: I hope so. [Panbanisha presses ?'good' again and then ?'milk'] You
want some milk. I know you always want some milk when your planning to be
good.
Narrator: As if to atone, Panbanisha goes to pat the dog she jumped on.
Footage extract 4 from "Kanzi: An Ape of Genius" 1993, NHK Productions
Narrator: On one occasion demands imposed by three months of filming caused human and
bonobo tempers to flare. The producers asked Sue to put sentences to Tamuli to
see if Kanzi would explain them to her, but Tamuli who does not understand
language became frustrated. She began kicking Sue. Pound for pound apes are
five times as strong as humans. Even Tamuli is stronger than Sue, let alone Kanzi.
With Sue trying to convey that she had misbehaved, Tamuli sought Kanzi's help.
To his credit Kanzi tried to arbitrate, keeping them apart. Tamuli is still
unrepentant, and Sue?
Dr Sue Savage-Rumbaugh: [To Tamuli] I'm not going to have it!
Narrator: Kanzi steps between them, mediating with his bulk, but the storm was almost
spent. Tamuli sat down and offered an apology. Sue, badly bruised was mollified.
Peace was restored.
Footage extract 5 from "Kanzi: An Ape of Genius" 1993, NHK Productions
Narrator: Bonobos are highly intelligent and physically similar to human ancestors whose
remains are found in this cradle of Mankind, the great Rift Valley of East Africa.
In the mid 70's a three and a half million year old human skeleton was discovered
in the Rift Valley. She was named Lucy for the Beatles song, ?'Lucy in the sky
with Diamonds' which happened to be on the radio at the time. The hominid Lucy
and bonobos like Kanzi share a remarkable number of features. Their limb
proportions and the way in which they walk are similar. Which returns us to
Kanzi, the bonobo who shares features with our own human ancestors.
Footage extract 6 from "Kanzi: An Ape of Genius" 1993, NHK Productions
Narrator: Three and a half million year old Lucy shows that hominids walked erect even
then. This posture held the key to human development in more ways than one.
Lucy's structure and bonobo's, Pan paniscus to use Kanzi's scientific name, have
been carefully compared at the University of California. Dr Adrienne Zihlman.
Dr Adrienne Zihlman: It's amazing how similar Pan paniscus is to Lucy who's one of the early
hominids that lived in Africa about three and a half million years ago. If we look
at their skeletons and compare them they're very similar in brain size, they're very
29
similar in stature, the length of the lower limbs and fairly similar in overall body
proportions.
Narrator: Zaire, in Central Africa. A Japanese research team has been studying wild
bonobos here since the mid 1970's. What bonobos make of humans we can't say.
But humans learned a lot about bonobos. For example, in the wild they often walk
upright. They walk like humans with straight backs and arms swinging at their
sides, taking obstacles like logs in their stride.
Wild bonobos like the ancient hominid Lucy, can walk upright for long distances,
even in rough terrain. A vertical posture leaves hands free to do more important
things.
Footage extract 7 from "Kanzi: An Ape of Genius" 1993, NHK Productions
Narrator: A bonobo walks like this, essentially upright. Chimpanzees bend further forward
making long distance walking difficult. In modern man the back is perfectly
straight. A bonobo leans further forward than the ancient hominid Lucy but even
so the bonobo resembles the hominid more closely than the chimpanzee does. If
we compare their gait the bonobo is certainly the closest ape to Lucy. Walking
upright left apes hands free to develop new skills.
Footage extract 8 from "Kanzi: An Ape of Genius" 1993, NHK Productions
Narrator: Kanzi, ?'buried treasure' in Swahili. Not a month goes by without Kanzi revealing
another facet of his character to those who know him best.
Kanzi, ?'buried treasure', promises to teach us much much more about the journey
of the human species from it's ancient bones and shadows to the historic land of
apes.
_____________________________
Conclusion
Narrator: We have seen how Geoffrey Miller's belief that sexual selection for traits such as
care and empathy resulted in ?'runaway kindness' intersects with the line of
argument being put by Jeremy Griffith.
Jeremy Griffith: I am suggesting that in terms of our evolution, our human ancestors lived in a
totally cooperative, integrated and loving state. This nurturing development of
integration began some 12 million years ago and became fully developed in our
primate ancestors some five million years ago before succumbing to the
emergence of a very competitive, aggressive and selfish fully conscious ancestor
some two million years ago. This period from 12 to two million years ago then is
I'm suggesting what produced our sense of morality and our conscience, our
innate sense of right and wrong. This period from 12 to two million years ago was
our species' time in infancy and childhood where we lived in a metaphorical
?'Garden of Eden' state of integrative cooperativeness.

As you can see, their is a mixture of aggresiveness and co-operativeness in Bonobo society but compared to the common chimp they certainly seem to be moving towards integration. Hope this is helpful and to hear from you again,
Kinch
0 Replies
 
John Jones
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Sep, 2005 04:32 am
Re: The Human Condition and the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics
Kinch wrote:
yitwail wrote:
Kinch wrote:
As it is widely acknowledge that our instincts are co-operatively orientated it is fair to say tha this behaviour must have escalated as the human world today is a highly divisive, violent and alienated one.

I hope I have addressed your questions adequately, but feel free to point out if I have not. Thanks for the criricism, keeps me thinking.
Kinch


you're welcome, and i thank you for considering my remarks seriously, despite the non-standard capitalization. in your reply to Terry you made the same claim that the instinctive basis of cooperative behavior in our species is widely acknowledged. i don't think you would suggest that this belief is universal; observations such as "the world is governed by self-interest" indicate some dissension. moreover, prevalence of a belief is no guarantee of its correctness. so, what evidence is there that cooperation is instinctual in humans? your remarks suggest to me that the main evidence is analogy with Bonobos. i don't find that convincing, especially since you proposed that upright posture was a key factor in the development of this instinct in humans, whereas Bonobos lack upright posture.


I am afraid that the best test of whether or not our instincts are geared towards selflessness and love or divisiveness and aggression is rather subjective. It is shown in the widespread values of humans, not in their behaviour. There are universal values and they are basically versions of Jesus' 'love one another as yourself' motto. The existence of universal values, I believem implies that that these values must go deeper than mere ideas about what we should do - if our instinctive orientation were to be aggressive and egocentric then these would be the universaly values(this, I know, is debatable). Another way of looking at it is even more subjective and it is just, what do you personally feel is the right way to behave - most people (deep down I think all people) would admit that the right way to act is co-operatively. As humans are essentially animals (unique ones, mind you) I think it is fair to say that the only way we could have a universal idea of what is the 'right' way to behave is if this behaviour was instinctive. The statement - 'the world is run by selfishness' is quite true, but selfishness is a result of the conflict between instinct and intellect which pushes humans to have to aquire physical wealth and dominance to assert their value and 'goodness' against the guilt of their conscience.

The analogy to Bonobos has its limitations. Bonobos are not fully upright but they are moreso then the common chimp, they are also younger looking and much more intelligent. Here are some examples from people who have worked with them.

(the first quotes are about the common chimp)

Footage extract 1 from "The New Chimpanzees" 1995, National Geographic.
Narrator: Chimpanzee's once thrived throughout the forests of equatorial Africa while
Bonobos were restricted to the Congo Basin. Today both species survive in
isolated fragments and are studied at a handful of sites. Gombe on the shore on
Lake Tanganyika in Tanzania was where Jane Goodall began her study 35 years
ago.
Fifi is the only chimp still alive from that time with six surviving offspring. Freud,
her eldest is now the dominant male in her group while her younger son, Frodo, is
the largest chimp at Gombe and working his way up the male hierarchy. Freud
now leads the tightly bonded party of males that form the core of the group. Male
chimps stay in the group of their birth and cooperate when there is common cause.
Every week or so the males form a para-military patrol to defend and test the
borders of their territory. In single file and total silence they follow their leader in
search of trespassing neighbours. Hair standing on end they listen for the voices
of their foes.
Each community of male chimps jealously guard their territory and the females in
residence. A stranger turns and flees. Though groups of males rarely engage in
battle an individual caught by a border patrol is at serious risk. In the 1970's, Jane
Goodall described a harrowing chain of events. Her study group split in two, and
over the course of four years, the males of one group systematically hunted down
and brutally killed every adult in the other group. Chilling evidence that warfare is
a painful legacy from our primate forebears.
21
Gombe's steep slopes, the stage for all this high drama, tumble from open
grassland to riverine forest, from the top of the great Rift to the blue basin of
Tanganyika.
Footage extract 2 from "The New Chimpanzees" 1995, National Geographic.
Dr Craig Stanford: Frodo is the best of the Gombe hunters, he's 17 years old and yet he's killed
10% of the colobus population the last three years. It's really quite an incredible…
[Frodo walks past Dr Stanford] animal and a great hunter. That was Frodo.
Narrator: All the hunters, including Frodo, will try to catch a monkey for himself. By
joining forces the chimps hope to strand some monkeys in an isolated tree top
with no route of escape except into the clutches of a chimp.
Dr Craig Stanford: Although we see elements of cooperation at Gombe what we think we are
seeing mainly is individual selfish behaviour by male hunters done within a
communal setting. It's a little bit like a baseball game in that baseball is a
communal game in which individual players are doing their piece and in the end
the end result is going to be success or failure. The more hunters there are the
greater the odds of success and yet each individual hunter is performing selfishly.
Narrator: As the chimps climb up the colobus retreat to the highest branches too slender to
bear a chimp's weight. The male Colobus stand their ground against chimps up to
four times their size. They will even take the offensive, momentarily driving the
chimps back. Holding his tail out of the chimp's reach this male buys precious
time for the escape of the females and young. Excited by the cries of hunter and
prey, females appear below. Eighty feet above the ground Frodo displays his
daring technique, but this time he misses. With chimps climbing everywhere one
monkey leaps into the arms of death. Even a rear attack by the defending colobus
cannot save him.
Footage extract 3 from "The New Chimpanzees" 1995, National Geographic.
Narrator: Sometimes words won't suffice. Males perform displays, dramatic performances
designed to establish their dominance and intimidate rivals. Fearless, Frodo
sometime uses the human researchers to enhance his displays. Even Charlotte has
fallen prey.
Dr Charlotte Uhlenbroek: He'll give me a whack. He'll just kind of add a little flourish by
incorporating me but it's not directed at me. If he wants to hurt somebody he
could have done it.
Narrator: Females and their young are dominated by this threat of force. But when the fruit
crop is ample everyone feasts. A mother's care is the primary influence on a
young chimp's life.
22
Footage extract 4 from "The New Chimpanzees" 1995, National Geographic.
Narrator: An infant chimp may seem secure within the bosom of his group but this is not
always true. A male has stolen a baby chimp from its frantic mother who follows
in desperate pursuit. In the Mahale Mountains south of Gombe, researchers have
recorded this terrible event not once but seven times and are at a loss to explain it.
The Alpha male is now in possession of the screaming infant. He actually beats
back the mother with her own baby. Both mother and baby are members of this
male's group and the infant was presumably sired by one of the group's members.
Males have been known to kill babies sired by outsiders but this kidnapper could
very well be the baby's father. The infant is killed by a bite to the face. Group
members share in the macabre feast just as if it were a monkey. Infanticide and
cannibalism.

(these quotes relate to Bonobos or 'pygmy chimps')

Footage extract 1 from "The New Chimpanzees" 1995, National Geographic.
Narrator: Chimpanzee's once thrived throughout the forests of equatorial Africa while
Bonobos were restricted to the Congo Basin. Today both species survive in
isolated fragments and are studied at a handful of sites. Gombe on the shore on
Lake Tanganyika in Tanzania was where Jane Goodall began her study 35 years
ago.
Fifi is the only chimp still alive from that time with six surviving offspring. Freud,
her eldest is now the dominant male in her group while her younger son, Frodo, is
the largest chimp at Gombe and working his way up the male hierarchy. Freud
now leads the tightly bonded party of males that form the core of the group. Male
chimps stay in the group of their birth and cooperate when there is common cause.
Every week or so the males form a para-military patrol to defend and test the
borders of their territory. In single file and total silence they follow their leader in
search of trespassing neighbours. Hair standing on end they listen for the voices
of their foes.
Each community of male chimps jealously guard their territory and the females in
residence. A stranger turns and flees. Though groups of males rarely engage in
battle an individual caught by a border patrol is at serious risk. In the 1970's, Jane
Goodall described a harrowing chain of events. Her study group split in two, and
over the course of four years, the males of one group systematically hunted down
and brutally killed every adult in the other group. Chilling evidence that warfare is
a painful legacy from our primate forebears.
21
Gombe's steep slopes, the stage for all this high drama, tumble from open
grassland to riverine forest, from the top of the great Rift to the blue basin of
Tanganyika.
Footage extract 2 from "The New Chimpanzees" 1995, National Geographic.
Dr Craig Stanford: Frodo is the best of the Gombe hunters, he's 17 years old and yet he's killed
10% of the colobus population the last three years. It's really quite an incredible…
[Frodo walks past Dr Stanford] animal and a great hunter. That was Frodo.
Narrator: All the hunters, including Frodo, will try to catch a monkey for himself. By
joining forces the chimps hope to strand some monkeys in an isolated tree top
with no route of escape except into the clutches of a chimp.
Dr Craig Stanford: Although we see elements of cooperation at Gombe what we think we are
seeing mainly is individual selfish behaviour by male hunters done within a
communal setting. It's a little bit like a baseball game in that baseball is a
communal game in which individual players are doing their piece and in the end
the end result is going to be success or failure. The more hunters there are the
greater the odds of success and yet each individual hunter is performing selfishly.
Narrator: As the chimps climb up the colobus retreat to the highest branches too slender to
bear a chimp's weight. The male Colobus stand their ground against chimps up to
four times their size. They will even take the offensive, momentarily driving the
chimps back. Holding his tail out of the chimp's reach this male buys precious
time for the escape of the females and young. Excited by the cries of hunter and
prey, females appear below. Eighty feet above the ground Frodo displays his
daring technique, but this time he misses. With chimps climbing everywhere one
monkey leaps into the arms of death. Even a rear attack by the defending colobus
cannot save him.
Footage extract 3 from "The New Chimpanzees" 1995, National Geographic.
Narrator: Sometimes words won't suffice. Males perform displays, dramatic performances
designed to establish their dominance and intimidate rivals. Fearless, Frodo
sometime uses the human researchers to enhance his displays. Even Charlotte has
fallen prey.
Dr Charlotte Uhlenbroek: He'll give me a whack. He'll just kind of add a little flourish by
incorporating me but it's not directed at me. If he wants to hurt somebody he
could have done it.
Narrator: Females and their young are dominated by this threat of force. But when the fruit
crop is ample everyone feasts. A mother's care is the primary influence on a
young chimp's life.
22
Footage extract 4 from "The New Chimpanzees" 1995, National Geographic.
Narrator: An infant chimp may seem secure within the bosom of his group but this is not
always true. A male has stolen a baby chimp from its frantic mother who follows
in desperate pursuit. In the Mahale Mountains south of Gombe, researchers have
recorded this terrible event not once but seven times and are at a loss to explain it.
The Alpha male is now in possession of the screaming infant. He actually beats
back the mother with her own baby. Both mother and baby are members of this
male's group and the infant was presumably sired by one of the group's members.
Males have been known to kill babies sired by outsiders but this kidnapper could
very well be the baby's father. The infant is killed by a bite to the face. Group
members share in the macabre feast just as if it were a monkey. Infanticide and
cannibalism.
Footage extract 1 from "Pygmy Chimpanzee: The Last Great Ape" 1997, BBC.
David Attenborough: In one isolated patch of the Central African Forest in a bend of the Zaire
River lives one of the rarest and least known of all the continent's creatures. It's
an ape, a chimpanzee. But this is no ordinary chimp. It's a bonobo. Bonobo's are
found only here in the remote forests of Zaire. They are also called Pygmy
Chimpanzees, though in fact they are just as tall as the common chimp but they
are more slender and with flatter faces. They are a distinct species perhaps even
closer to our own distant ancestors. This is our nearest living relative.
This group of bonobos includes a remarkable individual, a young male called
Shijimi. His group has been studied for more than 20 years so we know that he is
eight years old and that when he was three he lost his mother. He's an orphan. If
Shijimi were a common chimp he would almost certainly be dead by now. In the
cut and thrust of that society orphans seldom survive unless they are adopted by
another female. But bonobo social life is very different, far more tolerant and
relaxed. Friends can be male or female, young or old and groups are more closely
bound together. This is a peaceful and harmonious society, one in which a
motherless child has at least a chance. But when Shijimi lost his mother he lost
more than a meal ticket.
In apes as in our kind, childhood is a long slow process of learning, getting to
know the world around you and the rules of the society you live in. For a male
bonobo a mother is especially vital. She is the key to his future status in the group.
This young male is still at his mother's breast at six years old and he'll stay in her
group for life. Without a mother Shijimi will have no one to fight his corner.
Females are the dominant force in bonobo society.
So how has he survived and will he ever be more than just a social outcast.
Remarkably he's solved his problem by befriending the group's full-grown males.
There are three of them and Shijimi's gained their acceptance by grooming them.
As well as helping to keep the skin clean and free of parasites, mutual grooming
cements and sustains friendships. If Shijimi had a mother he wouldn't be making
friends with full grown males until much later in his young life. He's had to grow
up fast to fill the void left by his mother's death. Alliances with grown-up males
are no substitute for a mother's tender loving care but if Shijimi's lost his
childhood he does at least have friends and when the going gets tough, that can be
vital.
23
Even in this peaceful society there are tensions. The males have a definite pecking
order and the top male reacts vigorously to any challenge. Shijimi is bundled out
of the way. If he gets caught up in this he could be hurt. Dragging branches
around is a threat, a way of letting off steam. This may look violent but it's mostly
bluff. Actual physical conflict is rare.
Bonobos have one means of defusing tension they use above all else?-sex. Sexual
contact brings the males dispute to a peaceful close. More even than in human
societies, sex has become far more than just a means of reproduction. Everyone
does it with everyone else. Males with males, females with females, adults with
young. And they do it for all sorts of reasons. To greet, to appease, to reassure, to
enhance relationships of all kinds. It's the social cement of bonobo society. The
binding force that keeps the group together.
That togetherness is evident when bonobos set off to look for food. Unlike
common chimps they usually travel as a large compact group and the leader's
almost always a female. She decides when to move and where to go. Females
have a great influence in bonobo society, another contrast with common chimps.
Footage extract 2 from "Pygmy Chimpanzee: The Last Great Ape" 1997, BBC.
David Attenborough: Fruit is high in energy so eating it gives the bonobos time for more social
activities. But it doesn't contain much protein so they have to supplement their
diet with other foods like leaves, stems or pith. By the time Shijimi catches up the
others are already moving on. There's one fruit that's a particular favourite that
makes bonobos go bananas. This is the cause of all the excitement, it's a fruit
called Bolingo. At times like this the pecking order is very clear. The females
have first choice. Even the top male has to wait his turn.
Footage extract 3 from "Pygmy Chimpanzee: The Last Great Ape" 1997, BBC.
David Attenborough: Common chimps are afraid of water. They'll go to any lengths to avoid
getting their feet wet but for bonobos a stream holds no fears. They're looking for
insect larvae, of dragon flies and the like. Though bonobos are more vegetarian
than common chimps they do take animal food; caterpillars, earth worms, birds
eggs, even small mammals.
Footage extract 5 from "The New Chimpanzees" 1995, National Geographic.
Narrator: It is in Africa's dark heart, the Congo Basin that we find the gentler tributary of
our primate legacy. Takayoshi Kano has led the research here in Wamba, Zaire
for the past 22 years. He comes here in search of the second, little known species
of chimpanzee. Sugar cane is the sweet lure used to call down the elusive bonobo.
Dr Kano and his associate Chie Hashimoto have discovered that bonobos are
quite distinct from the chimps studied by Goodall and Boesch. At first glance they
are different. Although they have been called pygmy chimps they're not smaller,
just more slightly built. Hunted elsewhere in Zaire they're safe here but wary still.
The sugar cane buffet proves irresistible. At ease on two legs as well as on four
they simply rise up and walk so their hands are free to carry the cane. Eerily their
24
long shapely limbs and upright gait recall our own prehistoric forebears and their
natural two legged gait is only the first surprise they have in store for us. An
impressively stern female enters and snaps a young sapling. Once she picks
herself up she does something entirely surprising for a female chimp, she
displays, and the males give her sway. For this is the confident stride of the
group's leader, its alpha female, whom Kano has named Halu.
Females play a very different role in bonobo society than they do among chimps.
The reigns of power are shared equally between male and female held by a
strongly bonded group of high ranking mothers and their adult sons. The son of a
dominant female can take great liberties. High ranking females cooperate to
dominate adult males and support their sons in social conflicts. Though tough
with other adults bonobo mothers almost never discipline their babies, even when
they steal the food right out of their mouths.
Footage extract 1 from "Congo: Footprints in the Forest" 2001, BBC.
Narrator: Bonobos are pygmy chimpanzees found only on the south side of the Congo
River. Separated for two million years by this natural barrier, a smaller chimp
species has evolved which is very like our own. These are new age chimps,
caring, sharing apes. Bonobo males and females are of a similar size reflecting
fairly equal roles in their society. They live together in closely knit clans and they
take great care of each other. Psychologists say that mutual grooming like this
may have led to a modern human equivalent: gossiping. Both reinforce social
bonds, show that you care. Bonobos clean each other, we chat about our day to
day lives. Both may be ultimately trivial but a good excuse for intimacy.
The young male bonobos stay with their mother right through to adulthood and
this may help to explain why there is so little male aggression. The males have
great respect for females altogether. These really are touchy, feely apes, very
much at home with their feminine side. It's hardly surprising that feminists have
taken bonobos to their hearts. Females dominate this culture, male aggression has
been tamed.
Footage extract 2 from "Congo: Footprints in the Forest" 2001, BBC.
Narrator: One of the old assumptions about human origins was that we only learned to walk
upright after we came down from the trees and took to the grasslands. But a closer
look at our nearest relatives and especially bonobos suggests a simpler truth. Life
in the trees is a largely bipedal affair already. Maybe this step in our evolution
wasn't such a great leap after all.
Narration regarding "Ultimate Guide: Great Apes" 1996, Discovery Channel.
Narrator: For copyright reasons we are unable to include footage of bonobos from the 1996
documentary "The Ultimate Guide: Great Apes". However, in it Dr Jo Myers
Thompson discusses the differences between common chimpanzees and bonobos.
Dr Thompson explains that the clearest differences can be found in the status of
females.
25
She says a female chimpanzee's life is rugged. They have hardships just in daily
activities. They are probably lower on the hierarchy, the social status, than males
throughout the society and for instance males beat them up, chase them, bully
them around and that doesn't happen in bonobo society. The female bonobos are
not bullied and chased. Although there can be some male aggression, it's very
minor. Female bonobos are never raped as far as we know, they have first choice
at feeding sites. Their life is much more peaceful.
The narrator in this programme then goes on to say the physical difference
between chimps and bonobos are quite telling. Bonobos have shorter, smaller
faces and a more slender physique retaining many of the features seen in juvenile
chimps. They're rather like chimps frozen inside adolescent bodies. Even their
voices are high pitched and child-like. The male aggression that is so common in
chimps is much reduced in bonobos and even relations between neighbouring
groups are often peaceful.
Jo Thompson goes on to add, why do they need to be aggressive? They don't have
to fight for food, they don't have to fight for sex, they don't have to fight for interrelationships,
they don't have to fight for space. Why would they be aggressive?
Footage extract from "Monkey in the Mirror" 1995, BBC.
Narrator: Unlike common chimps bonobos have never been seen to kill their own kind. This
is truly an ape that makes love not war.
Footage extract 1 from "Kanzi: An Ape of Genius" 1993, NHK Productions
Narrator: Georgia State University's Language Research Center, Kanzi's home, is set
among 50 wooded acres just 20 minutes from down town Atlanta. Researchers
here study language development in human children by comparing it with
language development in our close relatives, apes.
Kanzi working on word tests with Dr Rose Sevcik. [Researcher saying words and
Kanzi identifying them on the picture board] Kanzi is distinguishing spoken
words. First the researcher says a word. To answer Kanzi presses a picture symbol
which triggers and electronic voice. These 256 symbols bear no visual
resemblance to test words which include adjectives, verbs, even wishes and
emotions. The board includes abstracts like good and bad. Some human adults
working with Kanzi have taken a year to memorise these symbols and master the
board. [Kanzi doing more word tests with the picture board]
Dr Rose Sevcik: Success! Good job. Good job. And then we'll get some more grapes, how does
that sound! [Kanzi and Dr Sevcik hooting with excitement]
Narrator: Dr Sue Savage-Rumbaugh is one of several people who care for Kanzi at the
Language Research Center. They often prepare their meals together.
26
Dr Sue Savage-Rumbaugh: Here's some cheese. You put that in your tummy this is going to be
for our hot food. Okay I want you to go put the onions in your hot food. I got the
onions in a bowl, lets go and put them in our hot food and we'll come back and
turn the TV on. Get your onions right here and put them in your bowl. [Kanzi puts
onions in saucepan] Look you spilled some of them.
Narrator: Savage-Rumbaugh has monitored Kanzi's language development since soon after
his birth 13 years ago.
Dr Sue Savage-Rumbaugh: Let me get you a spoon to stir it with Kanzi. Stir it up please. [Kanzi
stirs the onions] Will you wash this potato off for me? Could you wash the
potato? With the water. You need to wash it in the water. That's very good.
[Kanzi turns the tap on and washes the potato under the tap] Put some water in
the pan for our noodles. [Kanzi places pan in kitchen sink and turns on water]
More water, more water. Alright your noodles are going to go in here and you can
have a few of them for your tummy. Kanzi could you turn the water off again
please. [Kanzi turns the water off]
Footage extract 2 from "Kanzi: An Ape of Genius" 1993, NHK Productions
Narrator: Then there's Kanzi. Does he really understand what he hears? [Dr Savage-
Rumbaugh stands behind Kanzi so he can't see her and says ?'Kanzi, see if you
can find mushrooms' etc and Kanzi hands her the corresponding picture. Kanzi is
successful in all tests] Obviously Kanzi can choose correct pictures in response to
Sue's voice, but how about other voices, unseen voices?
Dr Rose Sevcik: Kanzi come on. We're all set, we're ready. [Kanzi takes a pair of headphones
from Dr Sevcik and puts them on]
Narrator: With Dr Rose Sevcik putting questions through a microphone Kanzi takes the test
that Austin [a common chimp] failed. Will Kanzi still be able to distinguish
words? [Dr Sevcik says through the microphone in another room ?'Kanzi, give Sue
the picture of juice' etc and Kanzi hands Dr Savage-Rumbaugh the corresponding
picture. Kanzi is successful in all tests] Kanzi has picked up several hundred
words, not through formal training but in daily life with Dr Savage-Rumbaugh
and others.
1980 was the year of Kanzi's birth into the bonobo clan at the Language Research
Center. He was less than a month old when this film was shot. Kanzi is the one
being kissed by a nurturing female called Matata. In bonobo society infants are
passed back and forth among adults. The whole community takes turns
babysitting. But baby Kanzi was happiest with Matata. In the wild adults lavish
affection on the young. Matata was born in the wild. Perhaps that is why she is so
fond of baby Kanzi despite the fact that he is not her offspring. In the end Kanzi
was raised by Matata.
27
Meanwhile researchers were trying to teach Matata words without much success.
She had baby Kanzi with her all the time but they weren't teaching him. They
thought him too little to learn. Then when Kanzi was about two and a half the
unexpected happened. He would say ?'apple' and ?'chase', then he would go over
and pick up an apple and look at the researcher with a smile on his face and start
running around the room. So to everyone's surprise they found that Kanzi was
learning language while they were trying to teach his mother and paying no
attention to Kanzi. What was happening was that he had been learning by
listening to what people said and observing what they did, much as a human child
might. Kanzi amazed his researchers. Apes had been taught language before but
he picked it up on his own.
Dr Sue Savage-Rumbaugh: Go get your ball.
Narrator: Kanzi understands long sentences as well as words. He's no good with lists but
sentences present no problem. Sue dons a welder's mask to prevent him reading
her expression.
Dr Sue Savage-Rumbaugh: I'm going to put on my mask and we're going to try a sentence for
Kanzi okay. Can you hear me Kanzi? [Kanzi squeals. Sue asks him to do different
things like ?'Put the key in the refrigerator', ?'Could you take off Sue's shoe.' Kanzi
is successful in all tests.]
Narrator: What about objects he can't see?
Dr Sue Savage-Rumbaugh: Go get the ball that's outdoors [Kanzi gets the ball.]
Narrator: Sometimes Kanzi applies his own logic. Asked to put water on a carrot he threw it
outdoors. Chided by Sue, he pointed to the rain, the carrot was wet.
A vocabulary of 800 words confers basic English skills. Kanzi has several
hundred.
Footage extract 3 from "Kanzi: An Ape of Genius" 1993, NHK Productions
Narrator: Panbanisha, like Kanzi loves the woods. Over excitement can cause bad
behaviour such as jumping on the dog [Panbanisha jumps on the dog].
Dr Sue Savage-Rumbaugh: Oh Panbanisha! [Sue makes Panbanisha look at the picture board
while she presses the symbol for ?'bad' over and over again]
Narrator: Panbanisha knows she's being scolded. Is this the face of bonobo contrition?
[Panbanisha contemplates what has happened and then presses the symbol for
?'good']
28
Dr Sue Savage-Rumbaugh: I hope so. [Panbanisha presses ?'good' again and then ?'milk'] You
want some milk. I know you always want some milk when your planning to be
good.
Narrator: As if to atone, Panbanisha goes to pat the dog she jumped on.
Footage extract 4 from "Kanzi: An Ape of Genius" 1993, NHK Productions
Narrator: On one occasion demands imposed by three months of filming caused human and
bonobo tempers to flare. The producers asked Sue to put sentences to Tamuli to
see if Kanzi would explain them to her, but Tamuli who does not understand
language became frustrated. She began kicking Sue. Pound for pound apes are
five times as strong as humans. Even Tamuli is stronger than Sue, let alone Kanzi.
With Sue trying to convey that she had misbehaved, Tamuli sought Kanzi's help.
To his credit Kanzi tried to arbitrate, keeping them apart. Tamuli is still
unrepentant, and Sue?
Dr Sue Savage-Rumbaugh: [To Tamuli] I'm not going to have it!
Narrator: Kanzi steps between them, mediating with his bulk, but the storm was almost
spent. Tamuli sat down and offered an apology. Sue, badly bruised was mollified.
Peace was restored.
Footage extract 5 from "Kanzi: An Ape of Genius" 1993, NHK Productions
Narrator: Bonobos are highly intelligent and physically similar to human ancestors whose
remains are found in this cradle of Mankind, the great Rift Valley of East Africa.
In the mid 70's a three and a half million year old human skeleton was discovered
in the Rift Valley. She was named Lucy for the Beatles song, ?'Lucy in the sky
with Diamonds' which happened to be on the radio at the time. The hominid Lucy
and bonobos like Kanzi share a remarkable number of features. Their limb
proportions and the way in which they walk are similar. Which returns us to
Kanzi, the bonobo who shares features with our own human ancestors.
Footage extract 6 from "Kanzi: An Ape of Genius" 1993, NHK Productions
Narrator: Three and a half million year old Lucy shows that hominids walked erect even
then. This posture held the key to human development in more ways than one.
Lucy's structure and bonobo's, Pan paniscus to use Kanzi's scientific name, have
been carefully compared at the University of California. Dr Adrienne Zihlman.
Dr Adrienne Zihlman: It's amazing how similar Pan paniscus is to Lucy who's one of the early
hominids that lived in Africa about three and a half million years ago. If we look
at their skeletons and compare them they're very similar in brain size, they're very
29
similar in stature, the length of the lower limbs and fairly similar in overall body
proportions.
Narrator: Zaire, in Central Africa. A Japanese research team has been studying wild
bonobos here since the mid 1970's. What bonobos make of humans we can't say.
But humans learned a lot about bonobos. For example, in the wild they often walk
upright. They walk like humans with straight backs and arms swinging at their
sides, taking obstacles like logs in their stride.
Wild bonobos like the ancient hominid Lucy, can walk upright for long distances,
even in rough terrain. A vertical posture leaves hands free to do more important
things.
Footage extract 7 from "Kanzi: An Ape of Genius" 1993, NHK Productions
Narrator: A bonobo walks like this, essentially upright. Chimpanzees bend further forward
making long distance walking difficult. In modern man the back is perfectly
straight. A bonobo leans further forward than the ancient hominid Lucy but even
so the bonobo resembles the hominid more closely than the chimpanzee does. If
we compare their gait the bonobo is certainly the closest ape to Lucy. Walking
upright left apes hands free to develop new skills.
Footage extract 8 from "Kanzi: An Ape of Genius" 1993, NHK Productions
Narrator: Kanzi, ?'buried treasure' in Swahili. Not a month goes by without Kanzi revealing
another facet of his character to those who know him best.
Kanzi, ?'buried treasure', promises to teach us much much more about the journey
of the human species from it's ancient bones and shadows to the historic land of
apes.
_____________________________
Conclusion
Narrator: We have seen how Geoffrey Miller's belief that sexual selection for traits such as
care and empathy resulted in ?'runaway kindness' intersects with the line of
argument being put by Jeremy Griffith.
Jeremy Griffith: I am suggesting that in terms of our evolution, our human ancestors lived in a
totally cooperative, integrated and loving state. This nurturing development of
integration began some 12 million years ago and became fully developed in our
primate ancestors some five million years ago before succumbing to the
emergence of a very competitive, aggressive and selfish fully conscious ancestor
some two million years ago. This period from 12 to two million years ago then is
I'm suggesting what produced our sense of morality and our conscience, our
innate sense of right and wrong. This period from 12 to two million years ago was
our species' time in infancy and childhood where we lived in a metaphorical
?'Garden of Eden' state of integrative cooperativeness.

As you can see, their is a mixture of aggresiveness and co-operativeness in Bonobo society but compared to the common chimp they certainly seem to be moving towards integration. Hope this is helpful and to hear from you again,
Kinch


Most of your arguments hinge on a word that has no explanatory value - 'instinct'.
0 Replies
 
Kinch
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Sep, 2005 06:13 am
Re: The Human Condition and the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics
John Jones wrote:

Most of your arguments hinge on a word that has no explanatory value - 'instinct'.


This keeps coming up. I'll try to clarify:

"At a public lecture I listened to Arthur Koestler airing his opinion that the human species was mad...as a result of an inadequate co-ordination between two areas of the brain - the 'rational' neocortex and the 'instinctual hypothalamus..."
(Bruce Chatwin, The Songlines, 1987)

"Jung Regards the unconscious mind as not only the repository of forgotten or repressed memories, but also of racial memories. This is reasonable enough when we remember the definition of instinct as racial memory"
(International University Society's Reading Course and Biographical Studies, Volume 6, c 1940.)

'The Tao acts through Natural Law…
From ancient times to the present,
Its name ever remains,
Through the experience of the Collective Origin.'
(From the 21st passage of Tao Te Ching, attributed to Lao Tzu [604-531 BC], as translated by R.L. Wing.)

'The great frontier between the two types of mentality is the line which separates non-primate mammals from apes and monkeys. On one side of that line behaviour is dominated by hereditary memory, and on the other by individual causal memory…The phyletic history of the primate soul can clearly be traced in the mental evolution of the human child. The highest primate, man, is born an instinctive animal. All its behaviour for a long period after birth is dominated by the instinctive mentality…' (Eugène Marais, The Soul of the Ape, written in the 1930s, published in 1969.)

'Oh wearisome Condition of Humanity!
Borne under one Law, to another bound:
Vainely begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sicke, commanded to be sound:
What meaneth Nature by these diverse Lawes?
Passion and Reason, selfe-division cause:'
(Fulke Greville, from his play Mustapha, c 1594-96.)

These quotes (I'd give you more but they're all I have at hand) demonstrate what I mean by instinctive, it is the hereditary memory of the behaviours developed by the genetic learning system over time.
Hereditary memory as opposed to individual causal understanding.
Hope that's helped,
Kinch
0 Replies
 
Kinch
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Sep, 2005 06:38 am
[quote="Ray]
But it is less divisive and violent than say in the middle ages. It seems that a movement in education and communication within and between countries have created a less divisive world.

If it's not too much trouble can you explain what you meant by a person's search of knowledge going against this thing you called an instinctive drive?[/quote]

The world is less divisive in some ways and from some perspectives, education and communication have helped to some extent but they have also helped destroy and enslave many races (the Australian Aborigines, and the African people in the USA for example (obviously the latter's situation has improved vastly). However there has not been a day of peace in the world for a ridiculously long time, there is great division between the have's and have not's, both within individual countries and more drastically on a world scale, there is also an ever increasing division between humans and nature and also a rising tide of youth suicides and drug abuse. There are also people being tortured as I write this - the world is still a very divisive place.

To try and answer your second point I will use one of Griffith's own analogy's. Consider a stork (Griffith calls this hypothetical bird Adam Stork) now Adam Stork has a hereditary memory or instinctive orientation to fly from Africa back to Europe come summer and to follow a specific migratory path. There is no reason to deviate from this path as it will take him safely home. However what would happen if we could somehow stick a conscious mind that can reach insights and learn from trial and error in Adam stork's head? Adam Stork might see an island off his migration path that has some tasty apples on it (it is irrelevant whether storks eat apples or not, it's just a nice 'Eden' reference). His new conscious mind has no understanding of why he should stick to his migration path and so he flies off course to get the apples, at this point he would experience what we call 'conscience'; a bad feeling. This is his instincts (not verbally) saying "don't do that, the migration path is the right way to go". It does not matter that his instinctive course is the right way for Adam Stork to go because his conscious mind needs to understand why it is the right way to go. Because of this Adam Stork would have to ignore his 'conscience' to find understanding, thereby developing the beginnings of the "Stork Condition".
Griffith says that the same thing happened with humans 2 million (approx.) years ago, except rather than a migration path being deviated from it was co-operative behaviour. To justify themselves against the bad feelings their conscience gave them our ancestors had to find understanding of the gene-based and nerve-based learning systems, evolution, Thermodynamics etc. etc. if we could somehow go back and give the early hominids a crash course in the history of human knowledge no conflict would ever emerge, because they could understand what was happening.
The whole purpose of this evolutionary development, according to Griffith, was that by forcing our ancestor's to abandon their instincts and home in search of knowledge (causing the rapid increase in brain volume in humans which stopped increasing about 50 000 years ago) it means that we can now return to a co-operative state not as ignorant, instinctual apes but as highly intelligent, completely co-operative humans able to live all over the world in many different climates.
Griffith maintains that this line of events would follow (in one form or another) in any species that developed consciousness.
Hope that's helped,
Kinch
0 Replies
 
John Jones
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Sep, 2005 01:17 pm
Re: The Human Condition and the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics
Kinch wrote:
John Jones wrote:

Most of your arguments hinge on a word that has no explanatory value - 'instinct'.


This keeps coming up. I'll try to clarify:

"At a public lecture I listened to Arthur Koestler airing his opinion that the human species was mad...as a result of an inadequate co-ordination between two areas of the brain - the 'rational' neocortex and the 'instinctual hypothalamus..."
(Bruce Chatwin, The Songlines, 1987)

"Jung Regards the unconscious mind as not only the repository of forgotten or repressed memories, but also of racial memories. This is reasonable enough when we remember the definition of instinct as racial memory"
(International University Society's Reading Course and Biographical Studies, Volume 6, c 1940.)

'The Tao acts through Natural Law…
From ancient times to the present,
Its name ever remains,
Through the experience of the Collective Origin.'
(From the 21st passage of Tao Te Ching, attributed to Lao Tzu [604-531 BC], as translated by R.L. Wing.)

'The great frontier between the two types of mentality is the line which separates non-primate mammals from apes and monkeys. On one side of that line behaviour is dominated by hereditary memory, and on the other by individual causal memory…The phyletic history of the primate soul can clearly be traced in the mental evolution of the human child. The highest primate, man, is born an instinctive animal. All its behaviour for a long period after birth is dominated by the instinctive mentality…' (Eugène Marais, The Soul of the Ape, written in the 1930s, published in 1969.)

'Oh wearisome Condition of Humanity!
Borne under one Law, to another bound:
Vainely begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sicke, commanded to be sound:
What meaneth Nature by these diverse Lawes?
Passion and Reason, selfe-division cause:'
(Fulke Greville, from his play Mustapha, c 1594-96.)

These quotes (I'd give you more but they're all I have at hand) demonstrate what I mean by instinctive, it is the hereditary memory of the behaviours developed by the genetic learning system over time.
Hereditary memory as opposed to individual causal understanding.
Hope that's helped,
Kinch


Instinct, then, is a commonly used word, but without a consistent meaning. Not only that, but the best meaning it does have does not make sense. It is not acceptable to use a word that refers to both an experience and the physical, as if to provide a meaningful link between them. To say 'some feelings are caused by instinct' commits a number of errors. First, no causal explanation links mind and matter; second, not only is the term instinct vague about its nature (mind or matter?), but it seems to switch its nature between mind and matter depending on what feelings are being considered. So which is it? Mind or matter?
0 Replies
 
 

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