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The Human Condition and the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics

 
 
Kinch
 
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2005 01:08 am
Just in case anyone is not sure what I mean by the human condition I will give a brief explanation. All humanity feels that the right way to act is co-operatively, lovingly and integratively (if anyone would like to scoff at this punch yourself in the nose and then do so) however looking around us we see a world of war, destruction, hatred, depression, drug abuse, rape, destruction of the environment etc. etc. This is the fundamental problem of the human condition. All the great philosophies, religions and a few of the more thoughtful scientists have dealt with this problem directly. It has led to all manner of concepts, including God (or Allah or Brahma etc.) the soul, the ultimate form of the good, and (dare I say it?) the Ubermensch, but is there a scientific explanation for this hellish state of affairs?
I would like to offer a theory which has been put forward by a biologist working in Australia (the land of my birth).
He proposes that 'morality' and concepts like 'good and evil', 'God', the 'Soul' and even (metaphorically, of course) the story in Genesis of 'Eden' and 'The Fall' are actually the result of our species' evolution. He first emphasises the 2nd law of thermodynamics, which states that in an open system with an outside source of energy (such as earth with its sun) matter will develop into more and more complex and integrated forms, this development occurs by all the parts that make up a whole working for the greater good (in human terms, lovingly and co-operatively or integratively). He cites ant colonies and the very atoms, cells, bacteria etc. in our own bodies as examples of this. He proposes that in the early stages of our species' development (12 million to 5 million years ago) we slowly developed instincts oriented to behaving co-operatively and lovingly or integratively, following this pattern of development. He suggests this process happened slowly through a variety of means:

Nurturing: As our species became more upright (arms free) mothers were able to carry their babies for longer. This development, combined with a food-rich, threat free environment, such as that of the Bonobo, our closest living relative, enabled nurturing of children to last much longer than usual. Although in a sense the selfless love shown in a mother's nurturing of her child is selfish, being the result of her genes ensuring their own continuance, when the period of nurturing is very long the child's emerging mind is taught at every moment that behaviour towards others should be selfless and co-operative.

Mate selection: Our ancestors began to recognise the benefits of this co-operative behaviour (mainly that they all had a very nice time) and so began to select their mates for co-operativeness. This led to idolising of co-operative, loving behaviour and also of younger looking mates, as youth was associated with the nurturing stage. This led to modern Homo sapiens sapiens' relative lack of body hair apart from the eyebrows, scalp, lower face and genitals, the same places in which hair first grows on developing Bonobos.

Griffith holds that as selflessness and co-operative, integrative behaviour became more and more entrenched in our early ancestor's lives these traits eventually became instinctive. This happened as a result of only the more co-operative members of the species having their genes passed down through the process of mate selection by females. These ancient human (or pre - human) societies would have been matriarchal.

Griffith maintains that establishing these ideas does not, however solve the human condition (similair ideas have been put forward by many others) but states that solving the human condition means understanding how humanity changed from a co-operative, loving integrative species into today's predominantly selfish, aggresive and divisive species.

His solution to this age old question of The Fall is deceptively simple and rather profound. Basically when the nerve-networks in the brain become complex enough they can associate past and present events and begin to 'understand' the world in a way that most animals do not (to the same extent). Griffith says that this ability developed fully in our species about 2 million years ago and that when this happened, the human condition emerged. The problem was that, unlike the genetic learning system, the nerve-based learning system in a fully conscious animal does not have an established way of behaving, it needs to learn for itself. Ineveitably, this led to humans, far back in our remote past, experimenting in self management. This seems innocent enough but the problem was that our instincts, not being insighful, could not possibly understand that the conscious mind or intellect had to search for knowledge. This meant that whenever our ancient ancestors would attempt to self manage, and inadvertantly go against their instincts (even something as simple as leaving their home to explore or hording fruit for themselves instead of sharing) they would face opposition from their instinctive self or 'conscience'. This conscience would have felt like a parent saying 'You're bad' and, having no way to explain what he was doing, our ancestor would have had to prove his worth by experimenting further and lashing out against those who were not yet 'sinning' or going against their instincts. This situation led to a rejection and eventual hatred of the instinctive or 'innocent' self and attacks on everything that represented it - nature, women, children and, ultimately, their 'true' instinctive selves.
Griffith maintains that it is this incredibly old conflict which is at the heart of every conceivable problem in human society.
He also claims that humanity (apart from a few) is living in an almost total denial of their instinctive self or 'soul' because the instinctive memory of their integrated, loving past is too depressing in light of their divisive, hateful present.
Griffith says that this denial and hatred of innocence, as opposed to the predominant alienation, is what has led to the persecution, lack of acknowledgement and misunderstanding of such figures as Jesus, Socrates and Nietzsche (and, indeed, Griffith himself) who were only glorified (sometimes deified) once their confronting presence was put at a distance.
The most important element of Griffith's work is his claim that now that this riddle of the human condition has been resolved their is no need for the divisive state to persist, as now we can reconcile our intellect to our instincts (Understanding as therapy). Griffith believes that as the upset and alienation of this state subsides (over a few generations or more) a new breed of humanity will emerge, the true embodiment of Nietzsche's Ubermensch - strong, fearless, wise, and ,most importantly, integrative - he believes that this will bring about the in-breaking of the true "Kingdom of Heaven" on earth.
I would love to hear what people on this site have to say about these ideas (I'll leave my opinion out) and any questions or ideas anyone may have. If you find these ideas interesting, want some evidence or more to read about them there are some free books and essays about it on Griffith's website - http://www.humancondition.info.
If anyone would like to communicate with me directly on this (or any other topic) my email is [email protected]
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Ray
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2005 01:24 am
Quote:
Nurturing: As our species became more upright (arms free) mothers were able to carry their babies for longer. This development, combined with a food-rich, threat free environment, such as that of the Bonobo, our closest living relative, enabled nurturing of children to last much longer than usual. Although in a sense the selfless love shown in a mother's nurturing of her child is selfish, being the result of her genes ensuring their own continuance, when the period of nurturing is very long the child's emerging mind is taught at every moment that behaviour towards others should be selfless and co-operative.


I think you got the wrong definition of selfish.
If the mother is doing it out of instinct, then she is motivated to act in that way without question. Her intent would neither be selfish nor selfless because selfishness put more importance upon oneself, and in the case of the mother, she would probably protect her young regardless of her life (assuming from the behaviours of certain species).

It's a unique theory, but I don't agree with it.
0 Replies
 
Kinch
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2005 01:41 am
I think you got the wrong definition of selfish.
If the mother is doing it out of instinct, then she is motivated to act in that way without question. Her intent would neither be selfish nor selfless because selfishness put more importance upon oneself, and in the case of the mother, she would probably protect her young regardless of her life (assuming from the behaviours of certain species).
[/quote]

When I refer to the mother's behaviour as being 'selfish' I do not mean selfish in the muman, ethical sense of the word but, as you say, the instinctive sense. By selfish I mean that her desire to protect her young is not (at first) prompted by an emotion (in the sense that humans would use it) but by her instinictive desire to ensure the survival of her genes, in this sense it is 'selfish' though I can understand you criticism.

You don't agree? fair enough.
0 Replies
 
Mr Stillwater
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2005 03:34 am
The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics states this, and this only:

"In a closed system, entropy (unavailable or degraded energy) will increase as a result of work performed".

Little to do with the shenanigans of the 'third chimpanzee'.


Wilkommen to A2K Kinch!
0 Replies
 
John Jones
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2005 04:01 am
Kinch wrote:
I think you got the wrong definition of selfish.
but by her instinictive desire to ensure the survival of her genes, in this sense it is 'selfish' though I can understand you criticism.

You don't agree? fair enough.


What's an instinctive 'desire'? What does that feel like? What feeling are you referring to?
0 Replies
 
Kinch
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2005 06:14 am
John Jones wrote:
Kinch wrote:
I think you got the wrong definition of selfish.
but by her instinictive desire to ensure the survival of her genes, in this sense it is 'selfish' though I can understand you criticism.

You don't agree? fair enough.


What's an instinctive 'desire'? What does that feel like? What feeling are you referring to?


Wow! I'm really going to have to watch my language in here to avoid people's sarcasm. I am simply referring to the fact that animals do things to ensure the survival of their genes, some call this 'selfish' genes. That's all.
0 Replies
 
Kinch
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2005 06:16 am
Mr Stillwater wrote:
The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics states this, and this only:

"In a closed system, entropy (unavailable or degraded energy) will increase as a result of work performed".

Little to do with the shenanigans of the 'third chimpanzee'.


The third chimpanzee?

I am discussing the 2nd law in relation to an open system, like the earth, where negative entropy occurs (systems move towards greater complexity).
0 Replies
 
John Jones
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2005 07:08 am
Kinch wrote:
John Jones wrote:
Kinch wrote:
I think you got the wrong definition of selfish.
but by her instinictive desire to ensure the survival of her genes, in this sense it is 'selfish' though I can understand you criticism.

You don't agree? fair enough.


What's an instinctive 'desire'? What does that feel like? What feeling are you referring to?


Wow! I'm really going to have to watch my language in here to avoid people's sarcasm. I am simply referring to the fact that animals do things to ensure the survival of their genes, some call this 'selfish' genes. That's all.


It's good practice! Vigilance in language can root out inconsistency in thought. It was not a casual question I asked. Now, if 'our' genes are selfish (and, by the way, what is 'our'?.. is there some other thing that makes us human?), then what is the desire or feeling we experience when we help our genes? Is it a wicked, selfish desire? Is it happiness? We could not say the feeling is 'instinctive' because that implies unconscious feelings, which is a curious expression.
0 Replies
 
yitwail
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2005 08:36 am
Re: The Human Condition and the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics
Kinch wrote:
His solution to this age old question of The Fall is deceptively simple and rather profound. Basically when the nerve-networks in the brain become complex enough they can associate past and present events and begin to 'understand' the world in a way that most animals do not (to the same extent). Griffith says that this ability developed fully in our species about 2 million years ago and that when this happened, the human condition emerged.


thanks for an interesting post. before i can comment on it, i need to clarify one point. in the part i quoted, did you perhaps mean 200,000 years ago rather than 2 million? the earliest Homo Erectus fossils don't quite go back 2 million years.
0 Replies
 
AngeliqueEast
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2005 09:25 am
BM
0 Replies
 
John Jones
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2005 11:43 am
Re: The Human Condition and the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics
yitwail wrote:
Kinch wrote:
His solution to this age old question of The Fall is deceptively simple and rather profound. Basically when the nerve-networks in the brain become complex enough they can associate past and present events and begin to 'understand' the world in a way that most animals do not (to the same extent). Griffith says that this ability developed fully in our species about 2 million years ago and that when this happened, the human condition emerged.


thanks for an interesting post. before i can comment on it, i need to clarify one point. in the part i quoted, did you perhaps mean 200,000 years ago rather than 2 million? the earliest Homo Erectus fossils don't quite go back 2 million years.


You have a stuck valve in your air pressure release line in your nose operated typewriter. Call a plumber, then try re-typing.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2005 01:56 pm
JJ-

How did we humans learn to place lines like that on a thread and keep them under wraps in a pub close to the last bell.
0 Replies
 
Terry
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2005 03:44 pm
Kinch wrote:
He first emphasises the 2nd law of thermodynamics, which states that in an open system with an outside source of energy (such as earth with its sun) matter will develop into more and more complex and integrated forms, this development occurs by all the parts that make up a whole working for the greater good (in human terms, lovingly and co-operatively or integratively). He cites ant colonies and the very atoms, cells, bacteria etc. in our own bodies as examples of this. He proposes that in the early stages of our species' development (12 million to 5 million years ago) we slowly developed instincts oriented to behaving co-operatively and lovingly or integratively, following this pattern of development.
First of all, as Mr. Stillwater said, the 2nd law of thermodynamics says nothing of the kind. And where did you get the idea that there is any such thing as "negative entropy"?

Second, nature does not intentionally create loving and cooperative beings, or anything else. If individuals in a species that behave in a cooperative manner are more successful at reproducing, then the genes and/or memes that produce cooperative behavior will tend to be replicated and may then evolve into more complex cooperative behaviors. Generally speaking, cooperative behavior may be advantageous for hunting, food procurement and protection, for species that live in groups. Symbiotes do not cooperate out of love but evolved traits that produce mutual advantage. And how does he explain the prevalence of parasites that maim or kill their unwilling hosts?

Quote:
Griffith holds that as selflessness and co-operative, integrative behaviour became more and more entrenched in our early ancestor's lives these traits eventually became instinctive. This happened as a result of only the more co-operative members of the species having their genes passed down through the process of mate selection by females. These ancient human (or pre - human) societies would have been matriarchal.
New traits were initially instinctive and advantageous ones became more entrenched by differential reproduction of those who thrived and attracted quality mates. Culture, however, allows new behaviors to rapidly become entrenched when society perceives them as advantageous and rewards them (materially or otherwise). Females are not the only ones who select mates. Perhaps males only chose cooperative females?

Quote:
This meant that whenever our ancient ancestors would attempt to self manage, and inadvertantly go against their instincts (even something as simple as leaving their home to explore or hording fruit for themselves instead of sharing) they would face opposition from their instinctive self or 'conscience'.
It is instinctive to hoard resources. Sharing (other than feeding offspring) generally has to be learned. If you don't believe that, spend time with young children. Or watch birds at a feeder or predators with their kill. Even when they have far more than they could possibly eat themselves, they do not willingly share.

Quote:
This situation led to a rejection and eventual hatred of the instinctive or 'innocent' self and attacks on everything that represented it - nature, women, children and, ultimately, their 'true' instinctive selves.
What a load of bull. A certain amount of selfishness is instinctive. It is a survival trait. Culture teaches us to share resources, protect the weak, and work together and sacrifice for the common good. People who were not properly socialized as children, lack the ability to feel empathy for others (due to genes or trauma), were brutalized into becoming killers or are simply self-centered enough to disregard the rights of others may attack whatever they fear, but that is not the normal condition of mankind.
0 Replies
 
flushd
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2005 04:39 pm
>>>>>All humanity feels that the right way to act is co-operatively, lovingly and integratively (if anyone would like to scoff at this punch yourself in the nose and then do so) however looking around us we see a world of war, destruction, hatred, depression, drug abuse, rape, destruction of the environment etc. etc. This is the fundamental problem of the human condition. All the great philosophies, religions and a few of the more thoughtful scientists have dealt with this problem directly. It has led to all manner of concepts, including God (or Allah or Brahma etc.) the soul, the ultimate form of the good, and (dare I say it?) the Ubermensch, but is there a scientific explanation for this hellish state of affairs? <<<<<


Okay, I read through the ideas you posted. I find them completely silly.

Here's why:

Right off the bat it starts with an assumption that 'the human condition' is some problem to be solved.
The human condition is what I call life.
The way I see it is: if you continue to live, and live well, then the 'human condition' is nothing more than an intellectual idea. What you do everyday, how you see the world, how you live: this is what ensures survival.
If what you are doing means you are not surviving, then the problem is not the 'human condition' but cultural.

This guy is starting off with his head in his azz.
Humanity was not born flawed and incomplete; however the "great philosophies and religions" you listed teach that we are.
That is the 'thought' that created the 'so-called' problem to begin with.

Salvation and answers to the human condition are not needed for people who know they were born onto the earth with everything they need.

thanks
0 Replies
 
flushd
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2005 04:44 pm
p.s.

I think this guy, Griffin's, theory is great example of 'the Fall'.
People thinking they can rule like gods, and have the wisdom of gods.
0 Replies
 
Ray
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2005 07:29 pm
Yeah I was wondering that too, wasn't the second law suppose to mean that thing tend to go in the direction of maximum entropy?
0 Replies
 
Kinch
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2005 09:58 pm
quote]
It's good practice! Vigilance in language can root out inconsistency in thought. It was not a casual question I asked. Now, if 'our' genes are selfish (and, by the way, what is 'our'?.. is there some other thing that makes us human?), then what is the desire or feeling we experience when we help our genes? Is it a wicked, selfish desire? Is it happiness? We could not say the feeling is 'instinctive' because that implies unconscious feelings, which is a curious expression.[/quote]

That is a cool little quote box thing!
You are right about that language thing, I am quite new to these forums and still have a lot to learn about the best way to conduct myself.
By 'our' I mean humans, however when I am talking about the 'selfish genes' I am referring more to our animal ancestors (by 'animal' our mean our ancestors before full consciousness had developed). There are several things which make us human, the theory presented in my original post (which I support) discusses the fact that humans have an instinctive orientation to co-operation and selfless behaviour, something that no other animal has fully developed. The theory also proposes the reason why our species lost touch with these instincts.
Of course helping one's genes is not 'wicked' words like this only have meaning in human relations (and even then it is shaky), animals are neither bad nor good, they follow their instincts, 'good' and 'evil' were words humans had to invent to explain things which, until now, have been inexplicable ie. why some people kill each other, why there are wars, oppression, why we left 'Eden'.
I do not quite follow your argument about instinctive feeling. If you are hungry and have the desire to eat that is instinctive, if you see your girlfriend and want to touch, kiss and make love to her that is fairly instinctive, if you see an old woman attacked in the street the desire to help her is instinctive.
If the ideas in my post are not clear you should visit www.humancondition.info, it is explained much more fully there.
0 Replies
 
Kinch
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2005 10:06 pm
Re: The Human Condition and the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics
[/quote]
thanks for an interesting post. before i can comment on it, i need to clarify one point. in the part i quoted, did you perhaps mean 200,000 years ago rather than 2 million? the earliest Homo Erectus fossils don't quite go back 2 million years.[/quote]

No, I meant 2 million years ago, this theory deals with our species development from before and after the emergence of humans as we are today.

Austalopithecus afarensis
to Australopithecus africanus to Australopithecus boisei to Homo habilis to Homo erectus to Homo sapiens to Homo sapiens sapiens

Hope to hear back from you,
Kinch
0 Replies
 
Kinch
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2005 10:30 pm
Terry wrote:
Kinch wrote:
He first emphasises the 2nd law of thermodynamics, which states that in an open system with an outside source of energy (such as earth with its sun) matter will develop into more and more complex and integrated forms, this development occurs by all the parts that make up a whole working for the greater good (in human terms, lovingly and co-operatively or integratively). He cites ant colonies and the very atoms, cells, bacteria etc. in our own bodies as examples of this. He proposes that in the early stages of our species' development (12 million to 5 million years ago) we slowly developed instincts oriented to behaving co-operatively and lovingly or integratively, following this pattern of development.
First of all, as Mr. Stillwater said, the 2nd law of thermodynamics says nothing of the kind. And where did you get the idea that there is any such thing as "negative entropy"?

Second, nature does not intentionally create loving and cooperative beings, or anything else. If individuals in a species that behave in a cooperative manner are more successful at reproducing, then the genes and/or memes that produce cooperative behavior will tend to be replicated and may then evolve into more complex cooperative behaviors. Generally speaking, cooperative behavior may be advantageous for hunting, food procurement and protection, for species that live in groups. Symbiotes do not cooperate out of love but evolved traits that produce mutual advantage. And how does he explain the prevalence of parasites that maim or kill their unwilling hosts?

Quote:
Griffith holds that as selflessness and co-operative, integrative behaviour became more and more entrenched in our early ancestor's lives these traits eventually became instinctive. This happened as a result of only the more co-operative members of the species having their genes passed down through the process of mate selection by females. These ancient human (or pre - human) societies would have been matriarchal.
New traits were initially instinctive and advantageous ones became more entrenched by differential reproduction of those who thrived and attracted quality mates. Culture, however, allows new behaviors to rapidly become entrenched when society perceives them as advantageous and rewards them (materially or otherwise). Females are not the only ones who select mates. Perhaps males only chose cooperative females?

Quote:
This meant that whenever our ancient ancestors would attempt to self manage, and inadvertantly go against their instincts (even something as simple as leaving their home to explore or hording fruit for themselves instead of sharing) they would face opposition from their instinctive self or 'conscience'.
It is instinctive to hoard resources. Sharing (other than feeding offspring) generally has to be learned. If you don't believe that, spend time with young children. Or watch birds at a feeder or predators with their kill. Even when they have far more than they could possibly eat themselves, they do not willingly share.

Quote:
This situation led to a rejection and eventual hatred of the instinctive or 'innocent' self and attacks on everything that represented it - nature, women, children and, ultimately, their 'true' instinctive selves.
What a load of bull. A certain amount of selfishness is instinctive. It is a survival trait. Culture teaches us to share resources, protect the weak, and work together and sacrifice for the common good. People who were not properly socialized as children, lack the ability to feel empathy for others (due to genes or trauma), were brutalized into becoming killers or are simply self-centered enough to disregard the rights of others may attack whatever they fear, but that is not the normal condition of mankind.


The following classes of negative entropy come to mind; there may be others.
In each class, of course, there are innumerable examples:
* The net increase of energy the Earth receives daily from the Sun.
* The increase in the mass of the Earth from bombardment of meteorites, some bearing complex carbon molecules.
* The formation of the six-sided crystalline symmetry of a snowflake from randomly moving molecules of water vapor.
* The formation of salts with precise planes of crystalline symmetry when water evaporates from a solution.
* The growth of a seed into a flowering plant.
* The growth of an egg into an adult animal.

I hope that has addressed your first concern but feel free to press me.

As for your concerns about co-operative instincts, "nature' does not evolve co-operative instincts (that is usually true) this is why Griffith proposes that our ancestor's environment must have been safe and food abundant so that co-operative behaviour could prevail. Also, he does not state that 'nature' created these instinct but that nature was guided by the emerging consciousness of our ancestors, who recognised the advantages of co-operativity for themselves and began to foster it.
As for your comment that symbiotes do not act out of love it is quite safe to say that, but Griffith never proposes that they act out of 'love' in the emotional sense only that they are co-operative. Being fully co-operative only becomes love when interpreted through a fully conscious mind. The question of parasites is irrelevant to this discussion.

I agree with what you are saying about culture do an extent, culture however only changes behaviour superficially and it does not change our instinctive orientation. Whether it was males or females who selected mates is quite irrelevant, though it is safe to say that males in a species are generally more aggresive (in order to compete for mates and protect the group). As females were the nurturers in the group and therefore less aggressive it is fair to say that they would have been more likely to do the mate selection. Either way it is a fairly irrelevant point.

Your claim that culture teaches us to share is partially true, but I think the real question is how do we recognise that it is good to share in the first place. It is widely acknowledged that our we are an instinctively co-operative species, as the Bonobo example helps to demonstrate. Selfishness is not a requirement for survival if there is an abundance of food. I agree with you that if a child is not nurtured or socialized enough they can be' 'brutalized' into killers, selfish people etc. but this begs the question, if these people were brutalized into this condition, the parents who did this to them must also have been 'brutalized, and their parents and theirs etc. etc. and it had to begin somewhere, this theory offers the only explanation I can find for this conundrum of human nature.
thankyou for you criticism, I hope I have addressed your concerns.
please refrain from using the term 'what a load of bull' to describe things you don't agree with, it is very uncultured and not fitting for a debate.
0 Replies
 
Kinch
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2005 10:32 pm
AngeliqueEast wrote:
BM


pardon?
0 Replies
 
 

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