2
   

Debunking the Reasons to stay in Iraq.

 
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 10:02 am
FreeDuck wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
We only know what you write here and judge you by that.


I could presume a lot about whether you or Brandon care about the Iraqis by what you write, McG, but again, it's not pertinent or provable. This discussion isn't about my feelings for the people of other nations. Emotional appeals such as the one in question usually signal the end of rational argument.


I do not care for those that target innocent civilians with car bombs. If those people are Iraqi, then yeah, you are right. I don't care about the Iraqi's.

I do care about people that are just trying to carry on with their lives, take care of their children, do their jobs, better their lives, wanting freedom for themselves.
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 10:03 am
How can it be a war? The prez is off riding his bike and the rest of the country is complaining about high gas prices and following the Natalee story.
Those poor devils in the armed forces gotta wonder what they're fighting for. I would.

http://img358.imageshack.us/img358/3610/foxhole2es.jpg
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 10:17 am
McGentrix wrote:

I do not care for those that target innocent civilians with car bombs. If those people are Iraqi, then yeah, you are right. I don't care about the Iraqi's.

I do care about people that are just trying to carry on with their lives, take care of their children, do their jobs, better their lives, wanting freedom for themselves.


Honestly, McG, I don't give a **** how you feel about the Iraqi people. This is an unnecessary sidebar.

Back to the topic...
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 10:31 am
FreeDuck wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:
Save that emotional appeal for someone who is likely to buy it.

As with most liberals, you are happy to find a way not to make any reference to my point. Emotional or not, my point is that you truly don't care what happens to them.


My point is that you have no way of knowing what I care about, and that I could just as easily assert that you don't care what happens to the Iraqis. Neither point is pertinent or provable. So go cry somewhere else, I don't want to hear it.

Whether you want to hear it is irrelevant. Once you post a political position here, it is subject to analysis by others. That is the fundamental nature of this board, so why am I having to explain it to you?
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 10:40 am
Brandon9000 wrote:
Whether you want to hear it is irrelevant. Once you post a political position here, it is subject to analysis by others. That is the fundamental nature of this board, so why am I having to explain it to you?


You weren't analyzing my position, you were crying about it.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 10:47 am
FreeDuck wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
Whether you want to hear it is irrelevant. Once you post a political position here, it is subject to analysis by others. That is the fundamental nature of this board, so why am I having to explain it to you?


You weren't analyzing my position, you were crying about it.

Whatever the emotional content of my post, it did indeed contain a relevant idea, i.e. that you were demonstrating an utter disinterest in the fate of the Iraqis.

Probably a good idea for you to evade my argument, though. I think it's your best bet.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 10:54 am
Brandon9000 wrote:
Probably a good idea for you to evade my argument, though. I think it's your best bet.


Apologies to ebrown...

Brandon, there is no argument in this statement:
Brandon9000 wrote:
The bottom line is that you don't give a flying **** whether Iraq has a democracy or not, and you aren't willing to sacrifice a thing to even try.


It's a statement devoid of supporting evidence and wholly irrelevant to the current topic. I've addressed it appropriately. Let's move on.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Aug, 2005 07:02 pm
McG wrote:
So, you side with the terrorists who target civilians with car bombs and homocide bombers? That seems about right for someone that thinks like you. I will continue to side with those Iraqi's that want a free and democratic Iraq instead of those that wish to rule by violence and oppression.

Where do you guys even begin to think this crap up?


I'm merely calling it the way it is, McG. Because I do this doesn't mean I "side with the terrorists who target civilians with car bombs and homocide bombers." I do not "side" with violent extremists, as the Bush Admin. refers to them, so I don't "side with the terrorists who target civilians with car bombs and homocide bombers." Likewise, I don't side with paranoid violent extremists who kill and destroy because an erstwhile friend of theirs may have had WMD. I don't side with paranoid violent extremists who MOAB entire apartment complexes because their erstwhile friend may have been there. I don't side with paranoid violent extremists who kill and destroy in a country to incite terrorism there so as to make it the front in their "war on terrorism."

Yeah, words like "a free and democratic Iraq" sure are pretty sounding. They palpitate the heart, moisten the eye, and appeal to emotionalists, but they ignore the realpolitik reasons the paranoid violent extremists kill and destroy in Iraq: to make it the front in their "war on terror"--which is diametrically opposed to their pretty sounding humanitarian pretext of securing "a free and democratic Iraq;" to establish bases of military operation from which to exert a hegemony in the region; and to control Iraq's natural resources. I don't know about you, but the feelings effected thereof in me are aversion and repugnance.
0 Replies
 
terrygallagher
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Aug, 2005 07:19 pm
ebrown_p wrote:
Brandon,
Iraq for the Iraqi's. What's wrong with that?


The placement of the inverted commer.


Moving away from rubbish jokes on to the discusion. The presence of troops in Iraq is whats causing the insurgency. Some Muslims (some, not all) disagree strongly with Americans medaling/spreading democracy/bombing their way to freedom in Muslim nations, but disagree with bombing civilians, instead belive that a war should be in a battle field against troops. There are more terrorists in Iraq now than ever before because it's like a magnet to people who want to fight America, it gives them the oppertunity.

America being in Iraq and the humiliation of muslims imprisoned illegally creates more people wanting to fight America. America can't beat the insurgancy because the more they kill more there are willing to fight. Most of the insurgences aren't Iraqis they are from other countries. People have come to Iraq to fight Wester Imperialism.

And just like London and Madrid were attacked after joining forces with America, people in a goverment seen to be "with" the USA will also be a target.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2005 06:21 pm
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Terrorist Incidents
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents#1996

SHOULD THE USA HAVE INVADED AFGHANISTAN SOONER?
The 09/11/2001 attack on the USA by Osama's al Qaeda occurred 5 years, 3 months, 23 days after Osama bin Laden left Sudan.



1996

May 19: Bin Laden leaves Sudan – after escaping at least one assassination attempt -- significantly weakened despite his ambitious organization skills, and returns to Afghanistan where he establishes al Qaeda training bases.

June 25: Khobar Towers bombing, killing 19 and wounding 372 Americans.

1997
---

1998
August 7: U.S. embassy bombings in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania and Nairobi, Kenya, killing 225 people and injuring more than 4,000.

1999
---

2000
October 12: USS Cole bombing kills 17 US sailors.

2001
September 11: "9/11" The attacks on September 11 kill almost 3,000 in a series of hijacked airliner crashes into two U.S. landmarks: the World Trade Center in New York City, New York, and The Pentagon in Arlington, Virginia. A fourth plane crashes in Somerset County, Pennsylvania.

SHOULD THE USA HAVE WAITED LONGER BEFORE INVADING IRAQ?

October 12: Bali car bombing of holidaymakers kills 202 people, mostly Western tourists and local Balinese hospitality staff.
October 17: Zamboanga bombings in the Philippines kill six and wounds about 150.
October 18: A bus bomb in Manila kills three people and wounds 22.
October 19: A car bomb explodes outside a McDonald's Corp. restaurant in Moscow, killing one person and wounding five.
October 23: Moscow theater hostage crisis begins; 120 hostages and 40 terrorists killed in rescue three days later.

December 20: Osama helps establish al Qaeda training bases in Iraq.

2003
March 4: Bomb attack in an airport in Davao kills 21.

March 20: US invades Iraq at the time al Qaeda controls about a dozen villages and a range of peaks in northeastern Iraq on the Iranian border.

May 12: Bombings of United States expatriate housing compounds in Saudi Arabia kill 26 and injure 160 in the Riyadh Compound Bombings. Al-Qaeda blamed.
May 12: A truck bomb attack on a government building in the Chechen town of Znamenskoye kills 59.
May 14: As many as 16 die in a suicide bombing at a religious festival in southeastern Chechnya.
May 16: Casablanca Attacks by 12 bombers on five "Western and Jewish" targets in Casablanca, Morocco leaves 41 dead and over 100 injured. Attack attributed to a Moroccan al-Qaeda-linked group.
July 5: 15 people die and 40 are injured in bomb attacks at a rock festival in Moscow.
August 1: An explosion at the Russian hospital in Mozdok in North Ossetia kills at least 50 people and injures 76.
August 25: At least 48 people were killed and 150 injured in two blasts in south Mumbai - one near the Gateway of India at the other at the Zaveri Bazaar.
September 3: A bomb blast on a passenger train near Kislovodsk in southern Russia kills seven people and injures 90.
November 15 and November 20: Truck bombs go off at two synagogues, the British Consulate, and the HSBC Bank in Istanbul, Turkey, killing 57 and wounding 700.
December 5: Suicide bombers kill at least 46 people in an attack on a train in southern Russia
December 9: A blast in the center of Moscow kills six people and wounds at least 11.

2004
February 6: Bomb on Moscow Metro kills 41.
February 27: Superferry 14 is bombed in the Philippines by Abu Sayyaf, killing 116.
March 2: Attack on procession of Shia Muslims in Pakistan kills 43 and wounds 160.
March 11: Coordinated bombing of commuter trains in Madrid, Spain, kills 191 people and injures more than 1,500.
April 21: Basra bombs in Iraq kill 74 and injure hundreds.
April 21: Bombing of a security building in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia kills 5.
May 29: Al-Khobar massacres, in which Islamic militants kill 22 people at an oil compound in Saudi Arabia.
August 24: Bombing of Russian airplane kills 90.
August 31: A blast near a subway station entrance in northern Moscow, caused by a suicide bomber, kills 10 people and injures 33.
September 1 – 3: Beslan school hostage crisis in North Ossetia, Russia, results in 344 dead.
September 9: Jakarta embassy bombing, in which the Australian embassy in Jakarta, Indonesia was bombed, kills eight people.
October 7: Sinai bombings: Three car bombs explode in the Sinai Peninsula, killing at least 34 and wounding 171, many of them Israeli and other foreign tourists.
December 6: Suspected al Qaeda-linked group attacks U.S. consulate in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, killing 5 local employees.
December 12: A bombing at the Christmas market in General Santos, Philippines, kills 15.

2005
February 14: A car bomb kills former Lebanese Prime Minister Rafiq Hariri and 20 others in Beirut.
March 9: An attack of an Istanbul restaurant killed one, and injured five. March 19: Car bomb attack on theatre in Doha, Qatar, kills one Briton and wounds 12 others.
April: April 2005 terrorist attacks in Cairo – On April 7 a suicide bomber blows himself up in Cairo's Khan al Khalili market, killing three foreign tourists and wounding 17 others.
May 7: Multiple bomb explosions across Myanmar's capital Rangoon kill 19 and injure 160.
June 12: Bombs explode in the Iranian cities of Ahvaz and Tehran, leaving 10 dead and 80 wounded days before the Iranian presidential election.
July 7: London bombings - Attacks on one double-decker bus and three London Underground trains, killing 56 people and injuring over 700, occur on the first day of the 31st G8 Conference. The attacks are believed by many to be the first suicide bombings in Western Europe.
July 23:Sharm el-Sheikh bombings: Car bombs explode at tourist sites in Sharm el-Sheikh, Egypt, killing at least 88 and wounding more than 100.
August 17: Around 100 home-made bombs exploded in 58 different locations in Bangladesh, Killing two and wounding 100. [/QUOTE]
………………………………………………………………………..
Note: All the preceding terrorist attacks exclude terrorist all attacks in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Israel.
………………………………………………………………………..

For some reason, after 2001 there were no terrorist attacks in the USA.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2005 06:23 pm
While we have so far failed to exterminate malignancy (i.e., those who either mass murder civilians or are accomplices to those who mass murder civilians) in both Iraq and Afghanistan, and in the rest of the world, we must nonetheless persevere until we learn how and do exterminate it. The deadly consequences to us all of failure to do so are too horrible to contemplate much less endure!
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2005 06:39 pm
ican you remined me of the line from Med school--the operation was successful unfortunately, the patient died.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Sep, 2005 09:31 am
dyslexia wrote:
ican you remined me of the line from Med school--the operation was successful unfortunately, the patient died.


You remind me of another line: "The reports of my death are premature."
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Sep, 2005 10:00 am
ican711nm wrote:
dyslexia wrote:
ican you remined me of the line from Med school--the operation was successful unfortunately, the patient died.


You remind me of another line: "The reports of my death are premature."


The man who said that is now dead.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Sep, 2005 10:05 am
ebrown_p wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
dyslexia wrote:
ican you remined me of the line from Med school--the operation was successful unfortunately, the patient died.


You remind me of another line: "The reports of my death are premature."


The man who said that is now dead.


"In the long run we're all dead."

Or how about: "Don't count your chickens before they hatch."

But my all time favorite is: "It ain't over 'til it's over." Smile
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Sep, 2005 04:37 pm
The following sentences were excerpted from Islamic Movement in Kurdistan, and from Ansar al-Islam, in Wikipedia.

Quote:
The Islamic Movement in Kurdistan is an Iraqi political party.
Some more radical members joined the al-Queda aligned Ansar al-Islam.
Retrieved from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Movement_in_Kurdistan

Quote:
Ansar al-Islam is an Islamist group, promoting a radical interpretation of Islam and holy war.
At the beginning of the 2003 invasion of Iraq it controlled about a dozen villages and a range of peaks in northern Iraq on the Iranian border.
It was formed in December 2001 as a merger of Jund al-Islam (Soldiers of Islam), led by Abu Abdallah al-Shafi'i, and a splinter group from the Islamic Movement in Kurdistan led by Mullah Krekar.
Retrieved from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ansar_al-Islam

……………………………………………………………………
Relevant Dates:
05/19/1996: Bin Laden leaves Sudan and returns to Afghanistan.
+ 5 years, 3 months, 23 days
09/11/2001: Osama’s al Qaeda perpetrates terrorist attack on USA.
+ 1 month, 9 days later.
10/20/2001: USA invades Afghanistan. Did the USA wait to long?
+ 2 months later.
12/20/2001: Osama’s al Qaeda establishes training base in Iraq.
+ 1 year, 3 months later.
03/20/2003: USA invades Iraq. Should the USA have waited longer?
==============================================
While we have so far failed to exterminate malignancy (i.e., those who either mass murder civilians or are accomplices to those who mass murder civilians) in both Iraq and Afghanistan, and in the rest of the world, we must nonetheless persevere until we learn how and do exterminate it. The deadly consequences to us all of failure to do so are too horrible to contemplate much less endure!
==============================================
George Bush is fallible just like the rest of us. However, let’s compare George Bush with Jimmy Carter, Walter Mondale, Michael Dukakis, Bill Clinton, Al Gore, John Kerry, Hillary Clinton, John Edwards, Howard Dean, Dick Durbin, and John McCain. In comparison with these folks, George Bush is a genius and paragon of virtue.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2005 09:36 pm
Exterminate it? By our actions we continue regenerating it.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2005 04:45 pm
InfraBlue wrote:
Exterminate it? By our actions we continue regenerating it.


Read more and pontificate less! These quotes from the bipartisan 9/11 Commission may help. Especially read the boldfaced parts. Al Qaeda had a huge regeneration long before we invaded Iraq.

Quote:
2.4 BUILDING AN ORGANIZATION, DECLARING WAR ON THE UNITED STATES (1992-1996)

Attacks Known and Suspected
After U.S. troops deployed to Somalia in late 1992, al Qaeda leaders formulated a fatwa demanding their eviction. In December, bombs exploded at two hotels in Aden where U.S. troops routinely stopped en route to Somalia, killing two, but no Americans. The perpetrators are reported to have belonged to a group from southern Yemen headed by a Yemeni member of Bin Ladin's Islamic Army Shura; some in the group had trained at an al Qaeda camp in Sudan.44

Al Qaeda leaders set up a Nairobi cell and used it to send weapons and trainers to the Somali warlords battling U.S. forces, an operation directly supervised by al Qaeda's military leader.45 Scores of trainers flowed to Somalia over the ensuing months, including most of the senior members and weapons training experts of al Qaeda's military committee. These trainers were later heard boasting that their assistance led to the October 1993 shootdown of two U.S. Black Hawk helicopters by members of a Somali militia group and to the subsequent withdrawal of U.S. forces in early 1994.46

In November 1995, a car bomb exploded outside a Saudi-U.S. joint facility in Riyadh for training the Saudi National Guard. Five Americans and two officials from India were killed. The Saudi government arrested four perpetrators, who admitted being inspired by Bin Ladin. They were promptly executed. Though nothing proves that Bin Ladin ordered this attack, U.S. intelligence subsequently learned that al Qaeda leaders had decided a year earlier to attack a U.S. target in Saudi Arabia, and had shipped explosives to the peninsula for this purpose. Some of Bin Ladin's associates later took credit.47

In June 1996, an enormous truck bomb detonated in the Khobar Towers residential complex in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, that housed U.S. Air Force personnel. Nineteen Americans were killed, and 372 were wounded. The operation was carried out principally, perhaps exclusively, by Saudi Hezbollah, an organization that had received support from the government of Iran. While the evidence of Iranian involvement is strong, there are also signs that al Qaeda played some role, as yet unknown.48

In this period, other prominent attacks in which Bin Ladin's involvement is at best cloudy are the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center, a plot that same year to destroy landmarks in New York, and the 1995 Manila air plot to blow up a dozen U.S. airliners over the Pacific. Details on these plots appear in chapter 3.

Bin Ladin seemed willing to include in the confederation terrorists from almost every corner of the Muslim world. His vision mirrored that of Sudan's Islamist leader, Turabi, who convened a series of meetings under the label Popular Arab and Islamic Conference around the time of Bin Ladin's arrival in that country. Delegations of violent Islamist extremists came from all the groups represented in Bin Ladin's Islamic Army Shura. Representatives also came from organizations such as the Palestine Liberation Organization, Hamas, and Hezbollah.51

Turabi sought to persuade Shiites and Sunnis to put aside their divisions and join against the common enemy. In late 1991 or 1992, discussions in Sudan between al Qaeda and Iranian operatives led to an informal agreement to cooperate in providing support-even if only training-for actions carried out primarily against Israel and the United States. Not long afterward, senior al Qaeda operatives and trainers traveled to Iran to receive training in explosives. In the fall of 1993, another such delegation went to the Bekaa Valley in Lebanon for further training in explosives as well as in intelligence and security. Bin Ladin reportedly showed particular interest in learning how to use truck bombs such as the one that had killed 241 U.S. Marines in Lebanon in 1983.The relationship between al Qaeda and Iran demonstrated that Sunni-Shia divisions did not necessarily pose an insurmountable barrier to cooperation in terrorist operations. As will be described in chapter 7, al Qaeda contacts with Iran continued in ensuing years.52

Bin Ladin was also willing to explore possibilities for cooperation with Iraq, even though Iraq's dictator, Saddam Hussein, had never had an Islamist agenda-save for his opportunistic pose as a defender of the faithful against "Crusaders" during the Gulf War of 1991. Moreover, Bin Ladin had in fact been sponsoring anti-Saddam Islamists in Iraqi Kurdistan, and sought to attract them into his Islamic army.53

To protect his own ties with Iraq, Turabi reportedly brokered an agreement that Bin Ladin would stop supporting activities against Saddam. Bin Ladin apparently honored this pledge, at least for a time, although he continued to aid a group of Islamist extremists operating in part of Iraq (Kurdistan) outside of Baghdad's control. In the late 1990s, these extremist groups suffered major defeats by Kurdish forces. In 2001, with Bin Ladin's help they re-formed into an organization called Ansar al Islam. There are indications that by then the Iraqi regime tolerated and may even have helped Ansar al Islam against the common Kurdish enemy.54

With the Sudanese regime acting as intermediary, Bin Ladin himself met with a senior Iraqi intelligence officer in Khartoum in late 1994 or early 1995. Bin Ladin is said to have asked for space to establish training camps, as well as assistance in procuring weapons, but there is no evidence that Iraq responded to this request.55 As described below, the ensuing years saw additional efforts to establish connections.

In February 1996, Sudanese officials began approaching officials from the United States and other governments, asking what actions of theirs might ease foreign pressure. In secret meetings with Saudi officials, Sudan offered to expel Bin Ladin to Saudi Arabia and asked the Saudis to pardon him. U.S. officials became aware of these secret discussions, certainly by March. Saudi officials apparently wanted Bin Ladin expelled from Sudan. They had already revoked his citizenship, however, and would not tolerate his presence in their country. And Bin Ladin may have no longer felt safe in Sudan, where he had already escaped at least one assassination attempt that he believed to have been the work of the Egyptian or Saudi regimes, or both. In any case, on May 19, 1996, Bin Ladin left Sudan-significantly weakened, despite his ambitions and organizational skills. He returned to Afghanistan.61[/B]


Quote:
2.5 AL QAEDA'S RENEWAL IN AFGHANISTAN (1996-1998)
Bin Ladin flew on a leased aircraft from Khartoum to Jalalabad, with a refueling stopover in the United Arab Emirates.62 He was accompanied by family members and bodyguards, as well as by al Qaeda members who had been close associates since his organization's 1988 founding in Afghanistan. Dozens of additional militants arrived on later flights.63

Though Bin Ladin had promised Taliban leaders that he would be circumspect, he broke this promise almost immediately, giving an inflammatory interview to CNN in March 1997. The Taliban leader Mullah Omar promptly "invited" Bin Ladin to move to Kandahar, ostensibly in the interests of Bin Ladin's own security but more likely to situate him where he might be easier to control.73

There is also evidence that around this time Bin Ladin sent out a number of feelers to the Iraqi regime, offering some cooperation. None are reported to have received a significant response. According to one report, Saddam Hussein's efforts at this time to rebuild relations with the Saudis and other Middle Eastern regimes led him to stay clear of Bin Ladin.74

In mid-1998, the situation reversed; it was Iraq that reportedly took the initiative. In March 1998, after Bin Ladin's public fatwa against the United States, two al Qaeda members reportedly went to Iraq to meet with Iraqi intelligence. In July, an Iraqi delegation traveled to Afghanistan to meet first with the Taliban and then with Bin Ladin. Sources reported that one, or perhaps both, of these meetings was apparently arranged through Bin Ladin's Egyptian deputy, Zawahiri, who had ties of his own to the Iraqis. In 1998, Iraq was under intensifying U.S. pressure, which culminated in a series of large air attacks in December.75

Similar meetings between Iraqi officials and Bin Ladin or his aides may have occurred in 1999 during a period of some reported strains with the Taliban. According to the reporting, Iraqi officials offered Bin Ladin a safe haven in Iraq. Bin Ladin declined, apparently judging that his circumstances in Afghanistan remained more favorable than the Iraqi alternative. The reports describe friendly contacts and indicate some common themes in both sides' hatred of the United States. But to date we have seen no evidence that these or the earlier contacts ever developed into a collaborative operational relationship. Nor have we seen evidence indicating that Iraq cooperated with al Qaeda in developing or carrying out any attacks against the United States.76

Now effectively merged with Zawahiri's Egyptian Islamic Jihad,82 al Qaeda promised to become the general headquarters for international terrorism, without the need for the Islamic Army Shura. Bin Ladin was prepared to pick up where he had left off in Sudan. He was ready to strike at "the head of the snake."

Al Qaeda's role in organizing terrorist operations had also changed. Before the move to Afghanistan, it had concentrated on providing funds, training, and weapons for actions carried out by members of allied groups. The attacks on the U.S. embassies in East Africa in the summer of 1998 would take a different form-planned, directed, and executed by al Qaeda, under the direct supervision of Bin Ladin and his chief aides.

On the morning of August 7, the bomb-laden trucks drove into the embassies roughly five minutes apart-about 10:35 A.M. in Nairobi and 10:39 A.M. in Dar es Salaam. Shortly afterward, a phone call was placed from Baku to London. The previously prepared messages were then faxed to London.92

The attack on the U.S. embassy in Nairobi destroyed the embassy and killed 12 Americans and 201 others, almost all Kenyans. About 5,000 people were injured. The attack on the U.S. embassy in Dar es Salaam killed 11 more people, none of them Americans. Interviewed later about the deaths of the Africans, Bin Ladin answered that "when it becomes apparent that it would be impossible to repel these Americans without assaulting them, even if this involved the killing of Muslims, this is permissible under Islam." Asked if he had indeed masterminded these bombings, Bin Ladin said that the World Islamic Front for jihad against "Jews and Crusaders" had issued a "crystal clear" fatwa. If the instigation for jihad against the Jews and the Americans to liberate the holy places "is considered a crime," he said, "let history be a witness that I am a criminal."93
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2005 04:48 pm
The following sentences were excerpted from Islamic Movement in Kurdistan, and from Ansar al-Islam, in Wikipedia.
The Islamic Movement in Kurdistan is an Iraqi political party.
Some more radical members joined the al-Queda aligned Ansar al-Islam.
Retrieved from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Movement_in_Kurdistan

Ansar al-Islam is an Islamist group, promoting a radical interpretation of Islam and holy war.
At the beginning of the 2003 invasion of Iraq it controlled about a dozen villages and a range of peaks in northern Iraq on the Iranian border.
It was formed in December 2001 as a merger of Jund al-Islam (Soldiers of Islam), led by Abu Abdallah al-Shafi'i, and a splinter group from the Islamic Movement in Kurdistan led by Mullah Krekar.
Retrieved from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ansar_al-Islam
……………………………………………………………………
Relevant Dates:
05/19/1996: Bin Laden leaves Sudan and returns to Afghanistan.
+ 5 years, 3 months, 23 days
09/11/2001: Osama’s al Qaeda perpetrates terrorist attack on USA.
+ 1 month, 9 days later.
10/20/2001: USA invades Afghanistan. Did the USA wait to long?
+ 2 months later.
12/20/2001: Osama’s al Qaeda establishes training base in Iraq.
+ 1 year, 3 months later.
03/20/2003: USA invades Iraq. Should the USA have waited longer?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2005 05:55 pm
THE PSYCHOLOGICAL CONFLICT BETWEEN COLLECTIVISTS AND INDIVIDUALISTS

Some people think perpetrators, their victims, and society are all responsible for the crimes perpetrators commit.

While other people think only perpetrators are responsible for the crimes they commit.

The psychological problem is that some think perpetrators are caused to be criminals by psychological forces not under control of the perpetrators’ own free wills.

While others think perpetrators are caused to be criminals by psychological forces under control of the perpetrators’ own free will.

Some think holding only perpetrators responsible for their crimes corrupts collective responsibility, encourages resentment, and promotes crime.

While others think failure to hold only perpetrators responsible for their crimes corrupts individual responsibility, encourages cowardice, and promotes crime.

I think Ayn Rand was about right! We are in the midst of a conflict between collectivists and individualists. If the collectivists win, we shall all – those that survive -- be uniformly miserable, and be uniformly held responsible for all that any of us perpetrate. If the individualists win, almost all of us except collectivists and perpetrators will be happier.
0 Replies
 
 

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