Debunking the Reasons to stay in Iraq.

edgarblythe wrote:

The permanent bases the US is building in Iraq makes me think we will never leave there, unless the voting public demands it.

I'm afraid I have to agree, Edgar. Iraq is destined to become another South Korea.

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All this talk about democracy and freedom on the march is disgusting. As Phoenix pointed out, and what should be glaringly obvious to everyone, is oil is the driving factor.

Bush and company could care less about the dead and wounded U.S. soldiers. They want control of the oil and they desperately want an obsequious Iragi government to be their bitch.

But that's where they went wrong. The Iraqis didn't cooperate. Instead of waving American flags, throwing flowers at our feet, and invitingly waving their collective asses in the air, they fought back.

And now Bush and company have egg on their faces.

So now what? They stay of course. They keep letting people die while they try to figure out what went so horribly wrong.

Bush the moron should have listened to his father in the first place when George Sr. tried to dissuade him from forging ahead with his ridiculous obsession.

That's what this whole thing boils down to -- a dumb kid didn't listen to his dad and got himself in a whole shitload of trouble.

Another one of life's lessons.

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The fact is that the Iraqi military isn't ready to protect its nation from the insurgents. Not too long ago a group of Iraqi soldiers were intrusted with the responsibility of guarding a checkpoint. Well, they fell asleep on their post and insurgents attacked and killed all the soldiers. This is obviously a problem, so how was it solved? American soldiers now patrol at night to make sure the Iraqi soldiers are awake.

Also, not too long ago a police station with 20 foot concrete blast walls and towers with mounted machine guns was attacked by insurgents. The keystone cops were not overpowered, but they still had to call for American assistant to protect their castle from rebelling serfs.

Hmmm, it doesn't sound to me at all like Iraq is ready to stand on its own feet.

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I saw lots of stable Iraq means better world posts. Well I think Bush put it best when he said, "Democracy isn't America's gift to the world, but God's gift to humanity."

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McGentrix wrote:

Imposing it's will to what end? What do you believe the US is trying accomplish by it's actions in Iraq?

I'll answer this as soon as you answer my question.

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A stable Iraq is good for the West?

Iraq was stable under Saddam.

So why depose him when it would lead to instability in Iraq which would be bad for the West?

(I know all about the other rationalisations for the invasion and occupation so no need to recycle them. )

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goodfielder wrote:

A stable Iraq is good for the West?

Iraq was stable under Saddam.

So why depose him when it would lead to instability in Iraq which would be bad for the West?

(I know all about the other rationalisations for the invasion and occupation so no need to recycle them. )

So it's a rhetorical question you ask?

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McGentrix wrote:

goodfielder wrote:
A stable Iraq is good for the West?

Iraq was stable under Saddam.

So why depose him when it would lead to instability in Iraq which would be bad for the West?

(I know all about the other rationalisations for the invasion and occupation so no need to recycle them. )

So it's a rhetorical question you ask?

No. I really want to know the answer to my question. My specific question. This isn't an invitation for us all to bang on about wmd etc.

I'll say it again. If a stable Iraq was/is desirable for the West then why invade and occupy and therefore destabilise? Extra points if you can avoid reproducing talking points/propaganda.

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Because Iraq was not stable. Remember the sanctions, no-fly zones, torture chambers, disregard for UN resolutions, support for terrorism? Do any of those things ring a bell?

Just because terrorists were not setting off car bombs does not mean it was stable by any means.

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Waiting on that answer, McG. You reneging?

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McGentrix wrote:

. Remember the sanctions, no-fly zones, torture chambers, disregard for UN resolutions, support for terrorism? Do any of those things ring a bell?

That's the best description of the Bush administration I have read yet.

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FreeDuck wrote:

McG, what do you think the US is doing there?

The US is helping the people of Iraq create a new form of government by Iraqi's, for Iraqi's. They are defending the governmental offices from daily attacks by insurgents trying to disrupt the growing government. The US is providing needed resources to recreate a failed infrastructure, rebuild the education and healthcare systems and get the nations natural resource collection and sales back online so it can support itself. The US is the defender of freedom and liberty and that is what we are providing the Iraqi citizens with. Something they have not known for many, many years.

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gustavratzenhofer wrote:

McGentrix wrote:
. Remember the sanctions, no-fly zones, torture chambers, disregard for UN resolutions, support for terrorism? Do any of those things ring a bell?

That's the best description of the Bush administration I have read yet.

That is very funny in a sadly ironic kind of way.

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I guess that's not how you see it Freeduck?

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McGentrix wrote:

. Remember the [..] disregard for UN resolutions?

He says that like he thinks its a bad thing

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Any reference to UN resolutions is a glaring case of whose ox has been gored . . . normal conservative blather is that the UN is irrelevant, and ougth to be done away. Reactionary paranoia runs the gamut to fear of socialist world government.

However, when one wants to be self-righteous about the Shrub's dirty little war, then suddenly UN resolutions take on the character of Holy Writ. Ah, the acrid stench of base hypocricy . . .

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McGentrix wrote:

I guess that's not how you see it Freeduck?

No, that's not how I see it. Though some of those things may be technically true, you left off the part about building permanent US military bases. I don't know what a free and democratic Iraqi government, run by Iraqi's and for Iraqi's, would need them for, so clearly you've left something out.

And, McG, I'm surprised you didn't say anything about fighting terrorism, Iraq being the central front for that and all.

I have more to say about your last post, and as soon as I can stop hurling from that "defenders of freedom" gagger I'll say it.

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McGentrix wrote:

FreeDuck wrote:
McG, what do you think the US is doing there?

The US is helping the people of Iraq create a new form of government by Iraqi's, for Iraqi's. They are defending the governmental offices from daily attacks by insurgents trying to disrupt the growing government. The US is providing needed resources to recreate a failed infrastructure, rebuild the education and healthcare systems and get the nations natural resource collection and sales back online so it can support itself. The US is the defender of freedom and liberty and that is what we are providing the Iraqi citizens with. Something they have not known for many, many years.

McG if you believe that then you are:

1. Deluded

but

2. A good person for wanting that for the Iraqis.

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McGentrix wrote:

FreeDuck wrote:
McG, what do you think the US is doing there?

The US is helping the people of Iraq create a new form of government by Iraqi's, for Iraqi's. They are defending the governmental offices from daily attacks by insurgents trying to disrupt the growing government. The US is providing needed resources to recreate a failed infrastructure, rebuild the education and healthcare systems and get the nations natural resource collection and sales back online so it can support itself. The US is the defender of freedom and liberty and that is what we are providing the Iraqi citizens with. Something they have not known for many, many years.

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FreeDuck wrote:

And the US has a really great track record of imposing stable, democratic governments by force.

Japan, West Germany, etc.

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Debunking the Reasons to stay in Iraq.

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