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Debunking the Reasons to stay in Iraq.

 
 
Amigo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Aug, 2005 10:52 pm
gustavratzenhofer wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
. Remember the sanctions, no-fly zones, torture chambers, disregard for UN resolutions, support for terrorism? Do any of those things ring a bell?


That's the best description of the Bush administration I have read yet.
Laughing Laughing Crying or Very sad
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 12:33 am
McG wrote:
The US is helping the people of Iraq create a new form of government by Iraqi's, for Iraqi's. They are defending the governmental offices from daily attacks by insurgents trying to disrupt the growing government.


The insurgents themselves by and large are Iraqi. What the US is doing is supporting its Iraqi stooges against those Iraqis who would not be its stooges.
0 Replies
 
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 03:28 am
Brandon9000 wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:
And the US has a really great track record of imposing stable, democratic governments by force.

Japan, West Germany, etc.


Germany and Japan had declared war on the US. The goal was to win the war, not "nation-building".

We're talking about meddling in others people's affairs, like in Chile, El Salvador, Honduras, Nicaragua, etc.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  2  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 03:52 am
Brandon9000 wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:
And the US has a really great track record of imposing stable, democratic governments by force.

Japan, West Germany, etc.

Do expound on that "etc." bit, please. Long list it is?
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 04:41 am
Setanta wrote:
Any reference to UN resolutions is a glaring case of whose ox has been gored . . . normal conservative blather is that the UN is irrelevant, and ougth to be done away. Reactionary paranoia runs the gamut to fear of socialist world government.

However, when one wants to be self-righteous about the Shrub's dirty little war, then suddenly UN resolutions take on the character of Holy Writ. Ah, the acrid stench of base hypocricy . . .


Damn, Set - I just love the way you put things sometimes...
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 05:46 am
Thanks, Boss . . .
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  2  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 08:11 am
Brandon9000 wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:
And the US has a really great track record of imposing stable, democratic governments by force.

Japan, West Germany, etc.


Vietnam, Grenada, Central America, Chile, Iran, etc.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 08:14 am
FreeDuck wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:
And the US has a really great track record of imposing stable, democratic governments by force.

Japan, West Germany, etc.


Vietnam, Grenada, Central America, Chile, Iran, etc.

The bottom line is that you don't give a flying **** whether Iraq has a democracy or not, and you aren't willing to sacrifice a thing to even try.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  2  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 08:17 am
Save that emotional appeal for someone who is likely to buy it.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 08:27 am
FreeDuck wrote:
Save that emotional appeal for someone who is likely to buy it.

As with most liberals, you are happy to find a way not to make any reference to my point. Emotional or not, my point is that you truly don't care what happens to them.
0 Replies
 
candidone1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 08:33 am
Brandon9000 wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:
And the US has a really great track record of imposing stable, democratic governments by force.

Japan, West Germany, etc.


Vietnam, Grenada, Central America, Chile, Iran, etc.

The bottom line is that you don't give a flying **** whether Iraq has a democracy or not, and you aren't willing to sacrifice a thing to even try.


The self serving and wholheartedly misguided nature of the "concern" makes the cause all the more illegitimate.
$5 billion per day (not to mention the human the human toll of the war) could have gone a long way to
1. Make American truly safer with border security, port security, transit security, airport security, frontline training, building security, more reliable intelligence officers and technology, disanding of homegrown terrorist cells (from the KKK to "AQUSA").
2. Begin curing some the of the social and financial ills that plague America, and have for decades.
3. Explore alternate sources of energy.


The fact of the matter Brandon, and I hate pissing on yor little parade here, is that the Bush administration factored in the future financial benefits of this so-called regime change in the name of future oil security and revenue for America.
In short: the was would pay for itself....so long as you aren't concerned about the tens of thousands of dead people stinking up the joint.

*spelling edit*
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 08:36 am
Brandon9000 wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:
Save that emotional appeal for someone who is likely to buy it.

As with most liberals, you are happy to find a way not to make any reference to my point. Emotional or not, my point is that you truly don't care what happens to them.


My point is that you have no way of knowing what I care about, and that I could just as easily assert that you don't care what happens to the Iraqis. Neither point is pertinent or provable. So go cry somewhere else, I don't want to hear it.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 09:07 am
InfraBlue wrote:
McG wrote:
The US is helping the people of Iraq create a new form of government by Iraqi's, for Iraqi's. They are defending the governmental offices from daily attacks by insurgents trying to disrupt the growing government.


The insurgents themselves by and large are Iraqi. What the US is doing is supporting its Iraqi stooges against those Iraqis who would not be its stooges.


So, you side with the terrorists who target civilians with car bombs and homocide bombers? That seems about right for someone that thinks like you. I will continue to side with those Iraqi's that want a free and democratic Iraq instead of those that wish to rule by violence and oppression.

Where do you guys even begin to think this crap up?
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 09:13 am
FreeDuck wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
FreeDuck wrote:
Save that emotional appeal for someone who is likely to buy it.

As with most liberals, you are happy to find a way not to make any reference to my point. Emotional or not, my point is that you truly don't care what happens to them.


My point is that you have no way of knowing what I care about, and that I could just as easily assert that you don't care what happens to the Iraqis. Neither point is pertinent or provable. So go cry somewhere else, I don't want to hear it.


We only know what you write here and judge you by that.
0 Replies
 
candidone1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 09:18 am
McGentrix wrote:
Setanta wrote:
Any reference to UN resolutions is a glaring case of whose ox has been gored . . . normal conservative blather is that the UN is irrelevant, and ougth to be done away. Reactionary paranoia runs the gamut to fear of socialist world government.

However, when one wants to be self-righteous about the Shrub's dirty little war, then suddenly UN resolutions take on the character of Holy Writ. Ah, the acrid stench of base hypocricy . . .


That's BS.

Take your hypocricy and shove it. Please.


*ahem*
hypocrisy
A noun
1. hypocrisy
insincerity by virtue of pretending to have qualities or beliefs that you do not really have

I'm sure you'd graciously apply this term wherever applicable right McG?
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 09:19 am
BBB
bm
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 09:25 am
McGentrix wrote:
We only know what you write here and judge you by that.


I could presume a lot about whether you or Brandon care about the Iraqis by what you write, McG, but again, it's not pertinent or provable. This discussion isn't about my feelings for the people of other nations. Emotional appeals such as the one in question usually signal the end of rational argument.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 09:39 am
Brandon,

Did you read my original posts? I hope you have and that everyone will (you all are getting off topic).

I am questioning whether there is any reason for us to stay in Iraq.

Democracy means government by the people, for the people-- in this case I believe it means that Iraq would be governed by the Iraqis.

Given that Iraq now has an elected government who is already suggesting that the US get out sooner rather than later-- and that with its friendly neighbor Iran, will without question be able to survive on its own...

Why not just leave Iraq to the Iraqi's now, and get the US troops out by next summer?

Make sure you read my original posts before you answer as it will save a lot of time.

Iraq for the Iraqi's. What's wrong with that?
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 09:44 am
It could also be argued that our continued presence contributes to the instability.
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candidone1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 09:47 am
ebrown_p wrote:

I am questioning whether there is any reason for us to stay in Iraq.

Democracy means government by the people, for the people-- in this case I believe it means that Iraq would be governed by the Iraqis.

Given that Iraq now has an elected government who is already suggesting that the US get out sooner rather than later-- and that with its friendly neighbor Iran, will without question be able to survive on its own...

Why not just leave Iraq to the Iraqi's now, and get the US troops out by next summer?


Iraq for the Iraqi's. What's wrong with that?


Well, considering there was never a logical reason to be in Iraq in the first place, the American occupation seems senselss from jump.
It's tough to say whether or not the insurgency will continue if the US withdraws. Are these suicide bombers protesting the US occupation, or will they continue their barbaric tactics even if they left.

If the US leaves and the insurgency stops, then it would be prudent to leave....if the insurgency continues even after they leave, then it would also be prudent to pack up and ship out.

I can see how the right would contend that the US needs to stay until the "job is done", and that sits fine with me....but the resistence movement is still strong and the end seems no closer than it did 2 years ago.

BTW...isn't the war over?
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