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White House Says "We Need A Little More Time"...

 
 
kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Aug, 2005 04:31 am
Baldimo wrote:
When Bush took office the unemployment rate was 4.2 in Jan of 01. A year later the unemployment rate jumped to 5.7 by Dec of 01. Do you know what events took place during the year? I'll leave you to guess.


First, the unemployment rate was already on the way up by September 11, but I'll put that aside. With bush, you always have to put damaging stuff aside to get to the even more damaging stuff you are dealing with.

Second, it seems t be your theory that 9/11 hurt this nation in a big way economically. Watching the horror in front of our eyes, yes, that hurt emotionally.

Seeing people throw themselves out of windows because they prefer to die from the fall rather than the inferno-yes, that hurt.

But economically? The Stock Market opened up only 1 week after it was forced to shut down.

You are looking for long term effects from 9/11? They don't exist, by and large.

New York City, home to the Dow Jones and Wall Street, was barely touched outside of the WTC. No other city is so oriented to financial matter s at NY. Yet, a full year later, do you want to know how much the unemploymet stats are for the New York City area?

Before 911: employment rate in NYC in NYC is 6.6%
After 9?11: employment rate is 8.0%

(Edited to remove incomplete sentence at end.)
0 Replies
 
Sturgis
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Aug, 2005 05:09 am
kelticwizard wrote:


But economically? The Stock Market opened up only 1 week after it was forced to shut down.

You are looking for long term effects from 9/11? They don't exist, by and large.

New York City, home to the Dow Jones and Wall Street, was barely touched outside of the WTC. No other city is so oriented to financial matter s at NY. Yet, a full year later, do you want to know how much the unemploymet stats are for the New York City area?

Before 911: employment rate in NYC in NYC is 6.6%
After 9?11: employment rate is 8.0%

Souch fo rthe thoery that Y is my ancestral hojel



Wow! Only 8 percent of the people in New York City are employed? I wonder what the other 92% do during the day...wander about, hang out at the park, go for long walks? Now, taking a giant leap and figuring you meant to say the UN-employment rate has risen to 8% let me remind you that certain companies have left New York City. Some have merely gone across the river to Jersey City where the waterfront has suffered a major overdevelopment in the past few years and some places moved to Westchester County just north of the city. Now, those moves probably did not cause unemployment levels to increase in New York City but they do show that companies left the city post-September 11 and there may well be companies which did not just re-locate locally and add to this the smaller businesses which went under completely during the following months and now years.

Add to this that there is an historic up and down in employment levels within the percentages you are citing and they really do not amount to diddly. Small variables are expected and do happen but overall things have straightened out in the nearly four years since the devastation took place. What I remember clearly during the Clinton years was reports of people who were no longer even looking for employment and therefore were no longer considered un-employed. Sort of skews the stats now doesn't it? I would prefer to see the overall standings of Americans at this point in time as far as fiscal soundness in each household. How does a person compare now as opposed to the year 1999 when it comes to having enough capital on reserve to survive a financial setback such as loss of a job, a health situation etc.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Aug, 2005 09:58 am
Quote:
Add to this that there is an historic up and down in employment levels within the percentages you are citing and they really do not amount to diddly. Small variables are expected and do happen but overall things have straightened out in the nearly four years since the devastation took place. What I remember clearly during the Clinton years was reports of people who were no longer even looking for employment and therefore were no longer considered un-employed. Sort of skews the stats now doesn't it? I would prefer to see the overall standings of Americans at this point in time as far as fiscal soundness in each household. How does a person compare now as opposed to the year 1999 when it comes to having enough capital on reserve to survive a financial setback such as loss of a job, a health situation etc.


Sturgis, you probably aren't aware that in 2001 they reduced the number of Americans supposedly working by a percentage point, 61 to 60 percent if I recall correctly. That's something like 6 million jobs that aren't counted on the unemployment numbers that WERE there in 1999 and AREN'T there now. That's missing jobs, baby.

Household savings are at an all time low and consumer debt is high. You may want to check the numbers out for yourself before you claim the economy is doing well..

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Aug, 2005 10:18 am
Sturgis wrote:

Now, taking a giant leap and figuring you meant to say the UN-employment rate has risen to 8% let me remind you that certain companies have left New York City. Some have merely gone across the river to Jersey City where the waterfront has suffered a major overdevelopment in the past few years and some places moved to Westchester County just north of the city. Now, those moves probably did not cause unemployment levels to increase in New York City but they do show that companies left the city post-September 11 and there may well be companies which did not just re-locate locally and add to this the smaller businesses which went under completely during the following months and now years.

True, but that process is going on all the time, 911 or no 911. Why, some years ago, perhaps before Clinton's presidency even-the Dow Jones was considering moving to New Jersey. In any economic situation, thee will be businesses moving in, businesses moving out, people getting new jobs, people losing their jobs. the idea is try to keep track of the trends.

I am not saying that New York City was not affected at all by 911-it did have a spike of 1.4 percent in the unemployment rate. I am merely pointing out that New York City was surely affected many more times than the country as a whole, and all New York felt was a jump of 1.4% in the unemployment rate. Bush supporters trying to lay the jump in unemployment and all the rest of the bad economic performance of Bush's term simply cannot blame 911. If 911 was that much of an economic disaster ovrall, I can assure you New York City, home to the WTC, would suffer much, much worse than it did.

Oh yes, the airlines suffered somewhat. I believe their business went down something like 20%. The airlines are frequencly cited by those who would portray 911 as the cause of economic disaster.

But guess what? Air transportation is only 0.6% of the GDP. Not 6%-0.6%. Six tenths of single percentage point. Even if the airlines all went out of business, it would barely affect the general economy at all, except for the secondary effect of nobody being able to get anywhere. Of course, they didn't all go out of business, they just suffered lossed of 20% of their business. Twenty percent of 0.6% isn't much, I think you will agree.

Consider this: if the WTC had burned down because of faulty electrical wiring instead of terrorism, do you think anyone would buy the notion that it was the cause of the economic mess of Bush's early term? No. But because it was terrorism, everyone is afraid to challenge anyone who blames anything on 911-even when all the economic indicators show that's hogwash.
0 Replies
 
kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Aug, 2005 10:47 am
Sturgis wrote:
Add to this that there is an historic up and down in employment levels within the percentages you are citing and they really do not amount to diddly. Small variables are expected and do happen.


Yes, but isn't it remarkable that when Clinton is in office, it always swings in the favorable direction, when Bush 41 or 43 is in office, it always swings in the unfavorable direction? Eight years of Clinton, eight years of Bush father and son-and the pendulum is always swinging the right way for Clinton, the wrong way for Bush. That's a long time to chalk up to coincidence.

I'd like to see how well these arguments would work in the real world, when you are explaining to your boss why the other guy always seems to put out more than you are. Somehow I don't think the "don't mean diddly" line of argument will go far.
0 Replies
 
kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Aug, 2005 11:22 am
Sturgis wrote:
What I remember clearly during the Clinton years was reports of people who were no longer even looking for employment and therefore were no longer considered un-employed. Sort of skews the stats now doesn't it?


Actually, Sturgis, what you were remembering was that Clinton was creating jobs so fast that people were returning to the workforce which they left in Bush 41's term. During one four month period in 1996, for instance, an enormous number of jobs were being created and filled, but the unemployment rate remained static.

The economists explained to us that the reason was the many people left the workforce in Bush 41's term: they were no longer counted as looking for work, so they no longer counted as unemployed. You have to have lost your job in the last six months, or filled out a job application in the last four weeks to count as unemployed. By and large, these people had run out of places to submit applications. But as soon as employers started hiring in healthy numbers again under Clinton, these people came flooding back into the workforce. Since they no longer counted as "unemployed" anymore, the unemployment rate really did not move down very much during this four month period-even though the stats showed that huge numbers of jobs were actually being filled.

In short, Clinton's economy not only gave jobs for people who entered the workforce during his administration, he gave jobs to people who got driven out of the workforce during Bush 41's adminstration.
0 Replies
 
kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Aug, 2005 11:48 am
Just to illustrate further. I chose the ages of 25 to 54 because these are the prime working years.

In December 2000, Clinton's last full month in office, the Civilian Noninstitutional Population between the ages of 25 and 54 was 120.7 million. That is all the people who are between 25 and 54 who are not in the military, jail, school etc. This includes people who are working, people who do not want to work, people who have been out of work for years, homemakers, people who won the lottery, etc.

Of those 120.7 million, 98.6 million were employed.

In the four plus years under Bush 43, the Civilian Noninstitutional Population between 25 and 54 grew by 2.9%: to 124.1 million. Now, you would think the number of employed people would grow by the same proportion, wouldn't you? If they did, there would be 101.5 million people working now.

But there aren't. The numbr of people between 25 and 54 with jobs declined-from 98.6 million to 98.2 million between Dec 200 and June 2005!

If the number of people between 25 and 54 who were employed kept pace with the population, there would be 3.2 million MORE people working right now than there are.

Where did they go? The same place where they went when Bush I was in office. Back into the part of the Civilian Noninstitutional Population that is not working. After the unemployment rate shot up in the early part of Bush 43's term, unemployed people gradually ran out of places to apply to, so they were no longer counted as "unemployed". They aren't working, but they are not officially "unemployed".

Having a loss of jobs in the four years you are in office is not good job performance, don't you agree? As the population goes up-in this case by 2.9%-you need more jobs to keep pace-certainly not less.

Bush is not getting it done in the employment area. It's just that he drives people out of the workforce so his numbers look a lot better than they really are.


Dec 2000
Civilian population 25-54 yrs: 120.7 million. Employed: 98.6 million.


June 2005
Civilian population 25-54 yrs: 124.1 million. Employed: 98.3 million.

Number of jobs lost due to failure to keep pace with population growth: 3.2 million.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Aug, 2005 11:55 am
Thanks KW, that was the stat I was looking for!

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Sturgis
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Aug, 2005 03:18 pm
Whatever. The fact of the matter is that you (kelticwizard and other criers) just want to wallow in the absurdity of numbers. Look around you people. Things are better, people are happy again and no numbers even Democrat sponsored ones are going to change that. Now if you choose to go around singing sorrowful tunes then by all means do so. As for me I am enjoying life and the wonderful times which have been created in part by Mr. Bush.
0 Replies
 
kickycan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Aug, 2005 03:21 pm
I'll be sure to tell that to my friend who has been unemployed for two years.

It is unbelievable how delusional people have to force themselves to be to stick with this guy.
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Aug, 2005 03:38 pm
whatever. now there's the kind of intellectual debate sturgis and other neo cons are constantly insisting on.
0 Replies
 
kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Aug, 2005 03:43 pm
Sturgis wrote:
Add to this that there is an historic up and down in employment levels within the percentages you are citing and they really do not amount to diddly. Small variables are expected and do happen.....

.....What I remember clearly during the Clinton years was reports of people who were no longer even looking for employment and therefore were no longer considered un-employed. Sort of skews the stats now doesn't it?


See that quote above, Sturgis? You wrote that. You.

When you thought you had a chance to use it to attack Clinton, you happily brought up issues of who is and who isn't unemployed.

When those issues are examined and shown to hurt your case, you throw up your hands in seeming exasperation at people who deal with "the absurdity of numbers".

Clinton's record speaks for itself. And the more you examine it, the more you must realize how many things were going in the right direction under his presidency.

Bush's record speaks for itself too, and the more you examine it, the more you realize that most of his "good statistics" only look good because the less-than-good reality has been defined out of the picture.
0 Replies
 
candidone1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Aug, 2005 03:47 pm
Sturgis wrote:
Whatever. The fact of the matter is that you (kelticwizard and other criers) just want to wallow in the absurdity of numbers. Look around you people. Things are better, people are happy again and no numbers even Democrat sponsored ones are going to change that. Now if you choose to go around singing sorrowful tunes then by all means do so. As for me I am enjoying life and the wonderful times which have been created in part by Mr. Bush.


I know you guys like to throw out facts, but how about posting up a few of those "numbers". Just for shits and giggles.

Quote:
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Americans' approval of President Bush's handling of Iraq is at its lowest level yet, according to an AP-Ipsos poll that also suggests fewer than half now think he is honest.


Source--read on....

Here's a plethora of data.

Google search page.
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Aug, 2005 04:03 pm
kickycan wrote:
I'll be sure to tell that to my friend who has been unemployed for two years.

It is unbelievable how delusional people have to force themselves to be to stick with this guy.


How in the world can your friend not have found a job in 2 years? Have they been looking or are they trying to be a statistic?
0 Replies
 
kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Aug, 2005 04:03 pm
Sturgis wrote:
Things are better, people are happy again and no numbers even Democrat sponsored ones are going to change that.


My numbers are from the Bureau Of Labor Statistics website, under the Department of Labor. Which I am sure you realize is under a Republican Administration.

I'll be glad to direct you how to access the relevant statistics if you like.


Sorry if the facts ruin your day. The facts are that the US population grows a little every year, always has. Yet, when Clinton left office four plus years ago, there were actually MORE people in the prime of their working lives, (25 to 54 yrs) employed than there are now. And there are 2.8% more people in that 25 to 54 yr age group now than there were then.

Anyway you look at it, when you have more people in the prime of their working lives than there used to be, but with fewer employed than there used to be, you are not going in the right direction, by anyone's definition.
0 Replies
 
kelticwizard
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Aug, 2005 04:20 pm
Sturgis wrote:
kelticwizard and other criers


If you want to see criers, take a look at the White House and it's supporters when they talk about the "devasting" economic consequences from 911.

As I have just showed, there weren't any. Any horrible economic consequences would be multiplied many times in New York City, home to the WTC, home to the financial capital of the world which it was a part of, home to people who's livelihood depend indirectly on that financial district, (owners of restaurants, construction contractors to build the stockbrokers new houses, car dealers to sell new luxury cars t the wealthy stockbrokers, etc).

If 911 is going to be blamed for the terrible economic situation of Bush's first few years, certainly we can expect unemployment rates of 30% or more in New York, an immense drop in the number of employed people, and so forth.

Well, guess what. It never happened. Unemployment in New York City went up 1.4% the year after 911. There was a minor-very minor-drop in the number of employed people in New York. But that was about it, economically.

So if New York, the very site of the 911 destruction, the very home of the financial industry it was part of, did not suffer much from 911, what the heck is with all these Bush supporters crying about the "devasting economic effects" of 911?

There were no "devasting economic effects". But that doesn't stop the Bush supporters from repeatedly claiming there were.
0 Replies
 
kickycan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Aug, 2005 04:25 pm
Baldimo wrote:
kickycan wrote:
I'll be sure to tell that to my friend who has been unemployed for two years.

It is unbelievable how delusional people have to force themselves to be to stick with this guy.


How in the world can your friend not have found a job in 2 years? Have they been looking or are they trying to be a statistic?


Oh, yeah...he's a lazy bastard who is independently wealthy.

Did I forget to mention that?
0 Replies
 
Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Aug, 2005 05:02 pm
kelticwizard wrote:
Sturgis wrote:
kelticwizard and other criers


If you want to see criers, take a look at the White House and it's supporters when they talk about the "devasting" economic consequences from 911.

As I have just showed, there weren't any. Any horrible economic consequences would be multiplied many times in New York City, home to the WTC, home to the financial capital of the world which it was a part of, home to people who's livelihood depend indirectly on that financial district, (owners of restaurants, construction contractors to build the stockbrokers new houses, car dealers to sell new luxury cars t the wealthy stockbrokers, etc).

If 911 is going to be blamed for the terrible economic situation of Bush's first few years, certainly we can expect unemployment rates of 30% or more in New York, an immense drop in the number of employed people, and so forth.

Well, guess what. It never happened. Unemployment in New York City went up 1.4% the year after 911. There was a minor-very minor-drop in the number of employed people in New York. But that was about it, economically.

So if New York, the very site of the 911 destruction, the very home of the financial industry it was part of, did not suffer much from 911, what the heck is with all these Bush supporters crying about the "devasting economic effects" of 911?

There were no "devasting economic effects". But that doesn't stop the Bush supporters from repeatedly claiming there were.


Here's some food for thought.

http://www.tysknews.com/Depts/Taxes/bull_clinton.htm
0 Replies
 
 

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