The flat earth idea was popularised by an american journalist who said that religion was stupid because it always claimed the earth was flat, which was never true. So religion never thought the earth was flat, unless you simply like to think that it did think that, which is dishonest.
We never thought the earth was flat. I am quite entitled to say that.
Different models of the earth present different earths in each case, The earth you speak of, the round earth, was NEVER thought of as flat.
I have already said that, but you ignored it.
Oh yes, and read this again: So religion never thought the earth was flat, unless you simply like to think that it did think that, which is dishonest.
So that puts a rocket up sciences arse and all its believers, of which you count yourself as one.
No-one can say 'the ancients thought the earth was flat'.
Why? Because 'earth' has not been defined, and the phrase can be ambiguous in meaning. As I have said, the term 'earth' refers to a structure within a particular model. The flat earth is not the earth of the spheroid. It follows that the 'flat earth' is as much a true fact as the spheroid earth. Truth pertains to consistency of premises and descriptions within a particular model. The model is constructed from observations.
But the claim made by others in this thread is that the church, or promoters of religion, thought the spheroid earth was flat and that they were stupid on account of that.
I am saying that the church was referring to the spheroid earth, and that they never thought it was flat. The evidence is there in pictorial form.
The american journalist? His name I have forgotten. On TV 4 months ago there was an hour long programme on science in the church. The article that the journalist wrote became popular and influential at a time when science was trying to assert itself generally.
Regarding the flat earth issue, the scientific community is guilty of casually promoting a falsehood to widen the schism between themselves and their rivals.
John Jones wrote:No-one can say 'the ancients thought the earth was flat'.
In your last post you argued that it was your right to say whatever you wanted...now you are saying that we cannot say something.
Get your act together.
Quote:
Why? Because 'earth' has not been defined, and the phrase can be ambiguous in meaning. As I have said, the term 'earth' refers to a structure within a particular model. The flat earth is not the earth of the spheroid. It follows that the 'flat earth' is as much a true fact as the spheroid earth. Truth pertains to consistency of premises and descriptions within a particular model. The model is constructed from observations.
This is probably the worst abuse of logic I've ever read.
Quote:But the claim the scientific community is guilty of casually promoting a falsehood to widen the schism between themselves and their rivals.
If I were you...I would refrain from accusing anyone else of promting falsehoods for any reason.
1. Flat earth has been mentioned in this thread in the context of a fault of religion.
But the claim made by others in this thread is that the church, or promoters of religion, thought the spheroid earth was flat and that they were stupid on account of that.
2. I will not explain to you 'models and earths' of which I spoke. Too bad. As if you were interested.
3. Your rabid frothings against religion, boring beyond any re-counting of them, are neutered to my satisfaction below:
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,6903,1143405,00.html
...The idea that they [people of the medieval world] thought it [the earth] was flat was invented by an American journalist by the name of Washington Irving. In 1828, he wrote a biography of Columbus in which he described the great man confronting the Church leaders who accused him of heresy for claiming the earth was round when the Church taught that it was flat.
The meeting never happened and the Church never taught that the earth was flat. Irving simply made it all up. And yet it's stuck. It's just one of the many, many misconceptions about the medieval world that we don't seem able to shake off.
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,6903,1143405,00.html
We use to worship the sun.we thought the world was flat. then we evolved. We will continue to evolve. It's happening in front of your eyes. There will allways be those who resist.It's fear.
We never thought the earth was flat.
John Jones wrote:
1. Flat earth has been mentioned in this thread in the context of a fault of religion.
Here is what you wrote earlier:
Quote:But the claim made by others in this thread is that the church, or promoters of religion, thought the spheroid earth was flat and that they were stupid on account of that.
I defy you to back that up. DO IT! Point to the post where that claim was made.
Quote:2. I will not explain to you 'models and earths' of which I spoke. Too bad. As if you were interested.
What????
Quote:3. Your rabid frothings against religion, boring beyond any re-counting of them, are neutered to my satisfaction below:
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,6903,1143405,00.html
...The idea that they [people of the medieval world] thought it [the earth] was flat was invented by an American journalist by the name of Washington Irving. In 1828, he wrote a biography of Columbus in which he described the great man confronting the Church leaders who accused him of heresy for claiming the earth was round when the Church taught that it was flat.
The meeting never happened and the Church never taught that the earth was flat. Irving simply made it all up. And yet it's stuck. It's just one of the many, many misconceptions about the medieval world that we don't seem able to shake off.
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,6903,1143405,00.html
In response to Amigo's comment:
Quote:We use to worship the sun.we thought the world was flat. then we evolved. We will continue to evolve. It's happening in front of your eyes. There will allways be those who resist.It's fear.
You wrote:Quote:We never thought the earth was flat.
Now you offer a commentary that shows Washington Irving simply made the notion that people at one time thought the earth was flat.
First of all...the work was acknowledged by the author, Washington Irving, as a partly fact, party fiction...imaginative work. It was not a biogrophy. And it spoke only to the people of the medievil world...and to a acknowledge fictional account of Columbus confronting some church fathers about the notion of a flat earth.
NOTHING which you have produced indicates that human beings (the "we" of Amigo's original post...and of your subsequent response) NEVER thought the earth was flat.
Wake the hell up.
And if you gained any "satisfaction" from producing something that simply does not back up your contention...enjoy it. Some people get satisfaction from bullshyt.
SUMMARY: The fact that by Columbus' time...most learned men had determined that the earth was spherical....AND NOT AT THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE...
...does not in any way verify your statement that "we" never thought the earth was flat.
And, John, the Church DID teach that the Earth was at the center of the universe...and did punish men who dared to suggest otherwise.
You can't catch me can you?
Now you talk about the centre of the universe. Now you mumble some excuse for Washington Irving. Now you say that no-one in this thread said that people thought that the earth was flat in a historical religious context. Check it out. Again.
And as you won't acknowledge your reason for hopping all over the place, I will spell it out.
You are not happy that I gave one instance, and a good one, where science has not shown us what the earth is really like. So you try to shoot the messenger. Stupid. Just admit your error.
John Jones wrote:
You can't catch me can you?
Huh///
What is this all about?
Quote:Now you talk about the centre of the universe. Now you mumble some excuse for Washington Irving. Now you say that no-one in this thread said that people thought that the earth was flat in a historical religious context. Check it out. Again.
NO. You check it out. YOU are the only one in this thread who has alleged that the church taught that the earth was flat.
YOU. Not anyone else.
So stop this phony bullshyt.
If you know of a passage where anyone else alleged that the church taught that the earth was round...YOU WOULD CITE IT. You are not citing it BECAUSE IT DOES NOT EXIST.
Quote:And as you won't acknowledge your reason for hopping all over the place, I will spell it out.
NO. You alleged that the notion that people at one time thought the earth was flat was the invention of an American journalist. It turn out that the only invention you are able to show was for a specific instance of Columbus supposedly confronting the church about teachings that apparently never occurred.
BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT PEOPLE NEVER THOUGHT THE EARTH WAS FLAT....and your statement to that effect was nonsense. UTTER NONSENSE.
But apparently you are unable to bring yourself to acknowledge that...so now you are trying to make me look wrong.
You are never going to do that in this instance....because you simply are wrong yourself.
Quote:You are not happy that I gave one instance, and a good one, where science has not shown us what the earth is really like. So you try to shoot the messenger. Stupid. Just admit your error.
I wish you would admit your two errors. One...that someone other than yourself asserted that the church taught that the earth was flat....and two, that because of that silly Washington Irving thing, we can safely assert that NOBODY EVER THOUGHT THE EARTH WAS FLAT.
Frankly, though, I suspect you are not bright enough, nor ethical enough to do this.
Frank Apisa wrote:John Jones wrote:
You can't catch me can you?
Huh///
What is this all about?
Quote:Now you talk about the centre of the universe. Now you mumble some excuse for Washington Irving. Now you say that no-one in this thread said that people thought that the earth was flat in a historical religious context. Check it out. Again.
NO. You check it out. YOU are the only one in this thread who has alleged that the church taught that the earth was flat.
YOU. Not anyone else.
So stop this phony bullshyt.
If you know of a passage where anyone else alleged that the church taught that the earth was round...YOU WOULD CITE IT. You are not citing it BECAUSE IT DOES NOT EXIST.
Quote:And as you won't acknowledge your reason for hopping all over the place, I will spell it out.
NO. You alleged that the notion that people at one time thought the earth was flat was the invention of an American journalist. It turn out that the only invention you are able to show was for a specific instance of Columbus supposedly confronting the church about teachings that apparently never occurred.
BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT PEOPLE NEVER THOUGHT THE EARTH WAS FLAT....and your statement to that effect was nonsense. UTTER NONSENSE.
But apparently you are unable to bring yourself to acknowledge that...so now you are trying to make me look wrong.
You are never going to do that in this instance....because you simply are wrong yourself.
Quote:You are not happy that I gave one instance, and a good one, where science has not shown us what the earth is really like. So you try to shoot the messenger. Stupid. Just admit your error.
I wish you would admit your two errors. One...that someone other than yourself asserted that the church taught that the earth was flat....and two, that because of that silly Washington Irving thing, we can safely assert that NOBODY EVER THOUGHT THE EARTH WAS FLAT.
Frankly, though, I suspect you are not bright enough, nor ethical enough to do this.
First post, second page.
One of your beliefs was destroyed.
You don't like it. Your repeated questions were given answers. Read them. Stop banging your desk lid.
John Jones wrote:Frank Apisa wrote:John Jones wrote:
You can't catch me can you?
Huh///
What is this all about?
Quote:Now you talk about the centre of the universe. Now you mumble some excuse for Washington Irving. Now you say that no-one in this thread said that people thought that the earth was flat in a historical religious context. Check it out. Again.
NO. You check it out. YOU are the only one in this thread who has alleged that the church taught that the earth was flat.
YOU. Not anyone else.
So stop this phony bullshyt.
If you know of a passage where anyone else alleged that the church taught that the earth was round...YOU WOULD CITE IT. You are not citing it BECAUSE IT DOES NOT EXIST.
Quote:And as you won't acknowledge your reason for hopping all over the place, I will spell it out.
NO. You alleged that the notion that people at one time thought the earth was flat was the invention of an American journalist. It turn out that the only invention you are able to show was for a specific instance of Columbus supposedly confronting the church about teachings that apparently never occurred.
BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT PEOPLE NEVER THOUGHT THE EARTH WAS FLAT....and your statement to that effect was nonsense. UTTER NONSENSE.
But apparently you are unable to bring yourself to acknowledge that...so now you are trying to make me look wrong.
You are never going to do that in this instance....because you simply are wrong yourself.
Quote:You are not happy that I gave one instance, and a good one, where science has not shown us what the earth is really like. So you try to shoot the messenger. Stupid. Just admit your error.
I wish you would admit your two errors. One...that someone other than yourself asserted that the church taught that the earth was flat....and two, that because of that silly Washington Irving thing, we can safely assert that NOBODY EVER THOUGHT THE EARTH WAS FLAT.
Frankly, though, I suspect you are not bright enough, nor ethical enough to do this.
First post, second page.
You are a phony, John. The first post on the second page...by Amigo...does NOT say that the church taught that the earth was flat.
That is a strawman YOU created.
Quote:One of your beliefs was destroyed.
I do not have any "beliefs" to be destroyed.
What has happened here is that you shot your mouth off...and cannot back up any of what you shot your mouth off about...so you are now in a childish snit.
Grow up.
Quote:You don't like it. Your repeated questions were given answers. Read them. Stop banging your desk lid.
Grow up!
Religions 'worship'. Page 2 post 1. Again.
We use to worship the sun.we thought the world was flat. then we evolved. We will continue to evolve. It's happening in front of your eyes. There will allways be those who resist.It's fear.
No-one thought the earth was flat. Logically self-evident.
Above. Points answered. Third time.
You, your science, your flat earth myth, washed up, hung up, drying.
Quote:We use to worship the sun.we thought the world was flat. then we evolved. We will continue to evolve. It's happening in front of your eyes. There will allways be those who resist.It's fear.
John is using THIS to back up his contention that someone claimed the church taught that the earth was flat.
Where did I say that? Am I missing a quote here?
I said this: 'But the claim made by others in this thread is that the church, or promoters of religion, thought the spheroid earth was flat.'
And Religions 'worship' by the way. That's a double whammy. The first whammy you can read, the second whammy I explained twice:
That we never thought the earth was flat, is correct, if the meaning of 'earth' is placed in the context of the quote. You said the reasoning was stupid. You did not get it. I know that. There we are then.
Also, the fact that someone in that quote said that we evolved (implication: through science) away from religion (worship) and flat earth beliefs, and that this was supported by you indirectly, gave away the bigger picture that your focus on details enabled you to tiresomely, laboriously and conveniently, ignore.
Frank Apisa wrote:
Quote:We use to worship the sun.we thought the world was flat. then we evolved. We will continue to evolve. It's happening in front of your eyes. There will allways be those who resist.It's fear.
John is using THIS to back up his contention that someone claimed the church taught that the earth was flat.
Where did I say that? Am I missing a quote here?
I said this: 'But the claim made by others in this thread is that the church, or promoters of religion, thought the spheroid earth was flat.'
And Religions 'worship' by the way. That's a double whammy. The first whammy you can read, the second whammy I explained twice:
That we never thought the earth was flat, is correct, if the meaning of 'earth' is placed in the context of the quote. You said the reasoning was stupid. You did not get it. I know that. There we are then.
Also, the fact that someone in that quote said that we evolved (implication: through science) away from religion (worship) and flat earth beliefs, and that this was supported by you indirectly, gave away the bigger picture that your focus on details enabled you to tiresomely, laboriously and conveniently, ignore.
You are hopeless, John.
I have been arguing with you under the asumption you have a working brain.
I am willing to admit when I am wrong.
I was wrong in that assumption.
Go peddle your papers.
It is obvious you are never going to acknowledge that you were all wet.
John Jones wrote:Frank Apisa wrote:
Quote:We use to worship the sun.we thought the world was flat. then we evolved. We will continue to evolve. It's happening in front of your eyes. There will allways be those who resist.It's fear.
John is using THIS to back up his contention that someone claimed the church taught that the earth was flat.
Where did I say that? Am I missing a quote here?
I said this: 'But the claim made by others in this thread is that the church, or promoters of religion, thought the spheroid earth was flat.'
And Religions 'worship' by the way. That's a double whammy. The first whammy you can read, the second whammy I explained twice:
That we never thought the earth was flat, is correct, if the meaning of 'earth' is placed in the context of the quote. You said the reasoning was stupid. You did not get it. I know that. There we are then.
Also, the fact that someone in that quote said that we evolved (implication: through science) away from religion (worship) and flat earth beliefs, and that this was supported by you indirectly, gave away the bigger picture that your focus on details enabled you to tiresomely, laboriously and conveniently, ignore.
You are hopeless, John.
I have been arguing with you under the asumption you have a working brain.
I am willing to admit when I am wrong.
I was wrong in that assumption.
Go peddle your papers.
It is obvious you are never going to acknowledge that you were all wet.
Shutup. You performed the service of allowing me to reveal my genius to myself, by making us revisit this proposition:
Proposition 1. "We used to think the earth was flat"
My response to it was sheer genius:
Proposition 2. "We never used to think that the earth was flat".
Why? There are a number of reasons.
First, the lack of etiquette of proposition 1 regarding the failure to inform the reader of who thought that the earth was flat and who didn't, was reflected by my vagueness over the term 'earth' - I did not say what model I was using that defined the term earth.
Second, you are right - it is quite conceivable that someone in the past said that the earth was flat. However, the model of that earth would not be the model of the earth today. And I used the model of the earth that proposition 1 was using today - the spheroid earth. The different earths (flat and round) come from different models, and they are not, on that account, the same 'earth'. So I can say that, in the context of meaning of the term 'earth' in proposition 1, I was correct in saying 'we never used to think the earth was flat'.
A third reason why my response was so good was that the barefaced promotion of the myth that religion thought the earth was flat was countered by me with an even more barefaced proposition, that appeared unprovable but was not. You see, you are among the big-boys now.
John Jones wrote:Frank Apisa wrote:
Quote:We use to worship the sun.we thought the world was flat. then we evolved. We will continue to evolve. It's happening in front of your eyes. There will allways be those who resist.It's fear.
John is using THIS to back up his contention that someone claimed the church taught that the earth was flat.
Where did I say that? Am I missing a quote here?
I said this: 'But the claim made by others in this thread is that the church, or promoters of religion, thought the spheroid earth was flat.'
And Religions 'worship' by the way. That's a double whammy. The first whammy you can read, the second whammy I explained twice:
That we never thought the earth was flat, is correct, if the meaning of 'earth' is placed in the context of the quote. You said the reasoning was stupid. You did not get it. I know that. There we are then.
Also, the fact that someone in that quote said that we evolved (implication: through science) away from religion (worship) and flat earth beliefs, and that this was supported by you indirectly, gave away the bigger picture that your focus on details enabled you to tiresomely, laboriously and conveniently, ignore.
You are hopeless, John.
I have been arguing with you under the asumption you have a working brain.
I am willing to admit when I am wrong.
I was wrong in that assumption.
Go peddle your papers.
It is obvious you are never going to acknowledge that you were all wet.
Shutup. You performed the service of allowing me to reveal my genius to myself, by making us revisit this proposition:
Proposition 1. "We used to think the earth was flat"
My response to it was sheer genius:
Proposition 2. "We never used to think that the earth was flat".
Why? There are a number of reasons.
First, the lack of etiquette of proposition 1 regarding the failure to inform the reader of who thought that the earth was flat and who didn't, was reflected by my vagueness over the term 'earth' - I did not say what model I was using that defined the term earth.
Second, you are right - it is quite conceivable that someone in the past said that the earth was flat. However, the model of that earth would not be the model of the earth today. And I used the model of the earth that proposition 1 was using today - the spheroid earth. The different earths (flat and round) come from different models, and they are not, on that account, the same 'earth'. So I can say that, in the context of meaning of the term 'earth' in proposition 1, I was correct in saying 'we never used to think the earth was flat'.
A third reason why my response was so good was that the barefaced promotion of the myth that religion thought the earth was flat was countered by me with an even more barefaced proposition, that appeared unprovable but was not. You see, you are among the big-boys now.
Frank Apisa wrote:John Jones wrote:Frank Apisa wrote:
Quote:We use to worship the sun.we thought the world was flat. then we evolved. We will continue to evolve. It's happening in front of your eyes. There will allways be those who resist.It's fear.
John is using THIS to back up his contention that someone claimed the church taught that the earth was flat.
Where did I say that? Am I missing a quote here?
I said this: 'But the claim made by others in this thread is that the church, or promoters of religion, thought the spheroid earth was flat.'
And Religions 'worship' by the way. That's a double whammy. The first whammy you can read, the second whammy I explained twice:
That we never thought the earth was flat, is correct, if the meaning of 'earth' is placed in the context of the quote. You said the reasoning was stupid. You did not get it. I know that. There we are then.
Also, the fact that someone in that quote said that we evolved (implication: through science) away from religion (worship) and flat earth beliefs, and that this was supported by you indirectly, gave away the bigger picture that your focus on details enabled you to tiresomely, laboriously and conveniently, ignore.
You are hopeless, John.
I have been arguing with you under the asumption you have a working brain.
I am willing to admit when I am wrong.
I was wrong in that assumption.
Go peddle your papers.
It is obvious you are never going to acknowledge that you were all wet.
Shutup. You performed the service of allowing me to reveal my genius to myself, by making us revisit this proposition:
Proposition 1. "We used to think the earth was flat"
My response to it was sheer genius:
Proposition 2. "We never used to think that the earth was flat".
Why? There are a number of reasons.
First, the lack of etiquette of proposition 1 regarding the failure to inform the reader of who thought that the earth was flat and who didn't, was reflected by my vagueness over the term 'earth' - I did not say what model I was using that defined the term earth.
Second, you are right - it is quite conceivable that someone in the past said that the earth was flat. However, the model of that earth would not be the model of the earth today. And I used the model of the earth that proposition 1 was using today - the spheroid earth. The different earths (flat and round) come from different models, and they are not, on that account, the same 'earth'. So I can say that, in the context of meaning of the term 'earth' in proposition 1, I was correct in saying 'we never used to think the earth was flat'.
A third reason why my response was so good...
None of your reasons were "good"...and most were absurd.
But since you enjoy making a fool of yourself...who am I to begrudge you this little frolic.
Quote:... was that the barefaced promotion of the myth that religion thought the earth was flat was countered by me with an even more barefaced proposition, that appeared unprovable but was not. You see, you are among the big-boys now.
Not while there are little kids like you around.
