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better off without religion?

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Would the world today be better off if man had not invented religion?

In the beginning of civilization religion seemed helpful in that it brought people together and was used to hold together political systems. However, today it only seems to be tearing the world apart.

Your thoughts please.

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I really don't have a problem with religion in general. I believe fundamentalism is tearing the world apart. Fundamentalists aside, I know a lot of cool, level headed people who find themselves in their respective religions and practice them without being arrogant.

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I agree with you that most religion is not really an issue. The problem is that within all the religions out there, there will always be fundamentalists and radicals causing problems.

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It's not necessarily religion that's a problem, it's intolerance.

Religion has done a great many good things in this world; in many times of great despair, it has given people hope, a reason to keep moving and has set guidelines for morals and the likes.

Religion has more than its fair share of horrible, corrupt things, don't get me wrong, but people need something to believe in, something that gives them a purpose.

And it's not just now that it's tearing the world apart; that's nothing new in the least. Crusades? Holocaust? Ethnic cleansing? The list goes on and on. Just depends on your perspective, I suppose, whether the pros try to keep the cons in check. (or other way around? there can be too much of a good thing...)

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The world might be better of without religion - but not better off for the search for a higher power.

However, when humans try to pass on thier search for a higher power... it is often called religion.

Sort of a 'necessary evil'.

Wait... did I just call religion evil? Wink

Wink

TTF

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Re: better off without religion?

SuperScott wrote:

Would the world today be better off if man had not invented religion?

No...not necessarily. But it would be a hell of a lot better off if it would disappear from existence now.

Quote:

In the beginning of civilization religion seemed helpful in that it brought people together and was used to hold together political systems. However, today it only seems to be tearing the world apart.

Your thoughts please.

Religion...and all other forms of superstition....are a net negative for society and humanity. The best possible guess is that we would be much better off if there were no more religions or other superstitions.

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I think we are trying to isolate religions as if they have existed historically in a vaccuum. All of the historicaly governments in the western world have been intertwined with religion.

Religion seems, in that context, to be simply a tool of man's greed and search for power.

I don't think you can ascribe a body count to religion without confusing mans political efforts. The question, then, becomes a personal one - is man better off without religion in his personal life.

This question cannot be a social political question and must be a personal one.

With that said - even if religions are superstitions are they a net negative? We seem to rule our lives in America around superstitious ideals such as: all men are born equal and that we can govern them peacefully.

Does that make them, then, negative.

TTF

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thethinkfactory wrote:

I think we are trying to isolate religions as if they have existed historically in a vaccuum. All of the historicaly governments in the western world have been intertwined with religion.

Religion seems, in that context, to be simply a tool of man's greed and search for power.

I don't think you can ascribe a body count to religion without confusing mans political efforts. The question, then, becomes a personal one - is man better off without religion in his personal life.

This question cannot be a social political question and must be a personal one.

With that said - even if religions are superstitions are they a net negative? We seem to rule our lives in America around superstitious ideals such as: all men are born equal and that we can govern them peacefully.

Does that make them, then, negative.

Nope.

But then I didn't say that all superstitions are a net negative for society.

The superstition masquerading as religion...definitely is.

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It really depends on what religion and in what context it has been used in. It is really fanaticism and ignorance that has been the root of problems often involved in the actions of some proclaimed religious people.

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The superstitious outlook of science is destroying intuition; the hypocrisy of science gives us odd, bad myths: Scientists already ask us to believe that spirits and forces inhabit material structures and that they can attack us. And we swallow these ideas without protest. The wars of science are played out on home ground.

So comon guys, let's play on an even playing field here.

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We use to worship the sun.we thought the world was flat. then we evolved. We will continue to evolve. It's happening in front of your eyes. There will allways be those who resist.It's fear.

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Amigo wrote:

We use to worship the sun.we thought the world was flat. then we evolved. We will continue to evolve. It's happening in front of your eyes. There will allways be those who resist.It's fear.

We never thought the earth was flat. That was a myth put out by an american journalist at the turn of the century, promoting a science magazine. I know at least two pictures made by the church, one 11th century, and the other 14th century, that show a round earth. Sailors knew the earth was round also.
So your evolution is going backwards - we lie about our past.

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Have you heard of the flat earth society? Did we worship the sun? Is the old testement a product of pagen myths and the sermons of men?

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John Jones wrote:

Amigo wrote:
We use to worship the sun.we thought the world was flat. then we evolved. We will continue to evolve. It's happening in front of your eyes. There will allways be those who resist.It's fear.

We never thought the earth was flat.

Are you actually prepared to go on record as saying that human beings never thought the earth was flat?

Quote:

That was a myth put out by an american journalist at the turn of the century, promoting a science magazine.

C'mon. What is this all about?

Somebody steal your top...or what?

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I know at least two pictures made by the church, one 11th century, and the other 14th century, that show a round earth.

Well I guess that proves something. Just not sure what.

Quote:

Sailors knew the earth was round also.

And so did cavemen, I suppose.

Quote:

So your evolution is going backwards - we lie about our past.

Yeah...well.....

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Amigo wrote:

Have you heard of the flat earth society? Did we worship the sun? Is the old testement a product of pagen myths and the sermons of men?

The early church brought together all the best scientists. Periods of history saw religion paralysed by politics and power but this was not always the case. Certainly today, the scientists are promoting new forms of ignorance in greater number than the church offers us. These are the blind spots of our time.
The scientists idea of what it is to 'worship the sun' is simplistic and couched in the inferior terms of the model of 'superstition'.

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Thank god franks here. JJ, Are you realy going to make show you we use to think the earth was flat.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

John Jones wrote:
Amigo wrote:
We use to worship the sun.we thought the world was flat. then we evolved. We will continue to evolve. It's happening in front of your eyes. There will allways be those who resist.It's fear.

We never thought the earth was flat.

Are you actually prepared to go on record as saying that human beings never thought the earth was flat?

Quote:
That was a myth put out by an american journalist at the turn of the century, promoting a science magazine.

C'mon. What is this all about?

Somebody steal your top...or what?

Quote:
I know at least two pictures made by the church, one 11th century, and the other 14th century, that show a round earth.

Well I guess that proves something. Just not sure what.

Quote:
Sailors knew the earth was round also.

And so did cavemen, I suppose.

Quote:
So your evolution is going backwards - we lie about our past.

Yeah...well.....

If someone thought the earth was flat we should say who thought it. Besides, a model is only as good as the evidence. In years to come we will not say that the earth is a three dimensional spheroid but a multidimensional bollock.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

But then I didn't say that all superstitions are a net negative for society.

The superstition masquerading as religion...definitely is.

Isn't that all of them to you Frank? Wink

Wink

Jason

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John Jones wrote:

If someone thought the earth was flat we should say who thought it. Besides, a model is only as good as the evidence. In years to come we will not say that the earth is a three dimensional spheroid but a multidimensional bollock.

Well, John....Amigo wrote:

Quote:

We use to worship the sun we thought the world was flat.

And you responded,

Quote:

We never thought the earth was flat.

It sounds to me as though you understood to whom Amigo was referring...and in fact, agreed with his use of "we."

I rather suspect Amigo was saying that humans at one time thought the earth was flat.

It is apparent to me that you are arguing that humans never thought the earth was flat...and you seem to be basing that on the fact that you saw some pictures somewhere which showed something.

You also asserted that the notion that humans at one point thought the earth was flat was "...a myth put out by an american journalist at the turn of the century, promoting a science magazine."

Your thesis is absurd...and considering the argument you presented here, you really should not be giving advice on how arguments ought to be sustained.

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As far as the earth being flat - it has been a LONG time since we did.

I know Aristotle knew it was round (the shadow on the moon they knew was caused by the earth and that shadow suggest a circular shape - even though later we discovered that wasn't exactly right either - it is flat on either end so the proper terming is a oblate spheroid).

However, Thales reasoned that the earth was a disk floating on water. SO it seems sometime between the 800's b.c.e and 300's b.c.e. th western world figured out that the world was not flat or disk shaped.

But to say never is wrong as well I think.

TTF

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