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Putin's war

 
 
Lash
 
  1  
Sat 26 Feb, 2022 08:15 am
@hightor,
He makes a strong case—and I agree with your closing sentiment.

0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  4  
Sat 26 Feb, 2022 09:15 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Meanwhile, after initial hesitation, resistance to Russia's exclusion from international payments (Swift) is now crumbling. Cyprus, Italy and even Hungary are hinting at support - only Germany is apparently still hesitating.
hightor
 
  4  
Sat 26 Feb, 2022 09:41 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Gee, Walter, somebody told us yesterday that we were deceived into thinking that anything other than what Trump referred to as "$2 worth of sanctions" was forthcoming.

a crystal ball gazer wrote:
The sanctions in force now are very far short of the "devastating" restrictions Biden so deceitfully promised, and it is becoming increasingly likely that nothing more is in the offing.


I guess cruise missiles would have been the preferred option?

0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  3  
Sat 26 Feb, 2022 09:53 am
Putin’s Useful Idiots

Too many Republicans who know better are serving as mouthpieces for the Kremlin.

Quote:
Mike Pompeo is of two minds about Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. On the one hand, the former secretary of state is critical of America’s failure to deter the attack. “President Biden has been weak toward Putin, unstable and unclear—he doesn’t understand what is at stake in the fight against Russia and doesn’t know that it takes strength to defend America and keep us out of war,” he wrote in a Fox News column Thursday.

On the other hand, Pompeo has a great deal of respect for the man who has ordered the invasion. Those are his words, not mine: “I have enormous respect for him.” Even though Pompeo says he saw the attack coming, he’s spent the lead-up lavishing praise on Vladimir Putin. In an interview last week, he called the Russian president “very savvy” and “very shrewd,” adding, “I consider him an elegantly sophisticated counterpart and one who is not reckless but has always done the math.” In January, he said, “He is a very talented statesman. He has lots of gifts … He knows how to use power. We should respect that.”

You can guess which of Pompeo’s takes on Putin entered heavy circulation on Russian state television.

Pompeo’s jumbled response reflects the often-incoherent foreign policy of his former boss, Donald Trump. The invasion of Ukraine has prompted the latest round of the GOP’s attempt to figure out what it believes, other than backing Trump and opposing President Joe Biden. At the moment, three major factions seem to have emerged: orthodox Trumpists, old-line national-security conservatives, and a hybrid camp.

Trump’s statements about Ukraine are as confusing as ever, at least if you try to read them for anything other than improvisatory self-aggrandizement. Trump’s Ukraine policy was all over the place: He sent weapons to Ukraine, something that the Obama administration had refused to do. He also accepted Putin’s seizure of Crimea, and he infamously tried to withhold aid from the Ukrainian government in exchange for help in the presidential election, leading to his first impeachment.

This week, Trump has said that “Putin is playing Biden like a drum,” and also, “I know Vladimir Putin very well, and he would have never done during the Trump Administration what he is doing now, no way!” Yet at an event at Mar-A-Lago last night, Trump, like Pompeo, praised Putin’s strategic genius: “I mean, he’s taking over a country for $2 worth of sanctions. I’d say that’s pretty smart.”

There’s nothing wrong (despite what some commentators might have you believe) with criticizing the Biden administration’s approach to Ukraine and Russia. Although an old tradition held that “politics stops at the water’s edge”—in other words, everyone should back the president in foreign policy—the Trump administration showed the folly and futility of that view: Many people criticized his handling of world affairs, and often rightly so. (Some of the present criticism of Biden is inane, but other parts are substantive.)

What is galling about these comments from Pompeo and Trump is not their break with the White House but their insistence on heaping praise on Putin, a habit that springs from Trump’s personal affection for Putin as well as his admiration for authoritarian politics. Not so long ago, Pompeo was the house hawk in the isolationist-leaning Trump administration, which was led by a man who preferred pulling back from the world. A West Point grad and Army veteran, Pompeo knows better. He also knows that his presidential ambitions probably cannot withstand a sharp break with Trump.

Tucker Carlson, another orthodox Trumpist and the dominant conservative pundit of the moment, is unreservedly pro-Putin. “Why do Democrats want you to hate Putin?” he asked Tuesday. “Has Putin shipped every middle class job in your town to Russia? Did he manufacture a worldwide pandemic that wrecked your business? Is he teaching your kids to embrace racial discrimination? Is he making fentanyl? Does he eat dogs?”

The answers to these faux-naive questions are easy enough: Democrats are not alone in hating Putin, who is a likely war criminal who has repeatedly broken international law, poisoned dissidents, and killed journalists, to pick just a few offenses. Carlson is smart enough to know all of that, so maybe he’s playing dumb, or maybe he doesn’t find those things objectionable.

A second group of Republicans trying to figure out how to respond to Putin’s invasion is what we might call the anti–anti-Trump-foreign-policy faction: They want to capitalize on some of the energy and ideas of Trumpism, but their shame is too strong or their stomachs too weak to debase themselves like Pompeo and Carlson. An anti–anti-Trump view of the crisis brings in Trumpian culture-war themes and a “gotta hand it to them” attitude about authoritarians like Putin.

A prominent exponent of this school is Ben Shapiro, a pundit with a foot in the old conservative movement who once opposed Trump but gradually found accommodation with him. “Russia and China are focused on expanding their spheres of influence via aggressive action,” Shapiro tweeted today. “The West is focused on expanding its national debt and exploding the gender binary. Whatever advantages we have on an objective level are wildly undermined by our narcissistic idiocy.” The Ohio U.S. Senate candidate J. D. Vance has taken the view that the Ukraine crisis is simply not of interest or relevance to the U.S. and that Americans should focus on immigration, an odd (and politically perilous) false binary.

The third group comprises the remainder of the Republican Party—what was called the establishment before that became a dirty word. These are conservatives who came up in the movement when it was dominated by a focus on a strong military, whether in the Cold War or the George W. Bush era. Leading voices in this group come from across the party. One example is Senator Ben Sasse of Nebraska, one of the loudest Trump critics in the GOP. For months, Sasse has been loudly protesting Biden’s refusal to block a major gas pipeline from Russia to Germany. (Germany finally froze the project, under American pressure, this week.) His Senate colleagues Marco Rubio and Lindsey Graham, who both allied themselves with Trump during his presidency, have been very critical of Putin and pushed the Biden team to be more aggressive. So have Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell and former United Nations Ambassador Nikki Haley.

This third faction includes most Republican elected officials, as the Bloomberg columnist Ramesh Ponnuru points out. The problem for this group is that the most influential figures in the party are in the other two groups, and they’re most interested in fluffing Trump’s profile and playing footsie with Putin. During the Cold War, when Republicans were staunchly anti-Russia, there was a pithy term for people who for their own domestic political reasons defended Communist leaders and arguments in the West. The Soviet Union is gone, but the term is still handy for describing Putin’s American cheerleaders: useful idiots.

theatlantic/graham
Walter Hinteler
 
  4  
Sat 26 Feb, 2022 09:57 am
@hightor,
It's quite simple in my opinion: Biden = bad equals Putin = good.
Lash
 
  -3  
Sat 26 Feb, 2022 10:02 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

It's quite simple in my opinion: Biden = bad equals Putin = good.

No critical thinking allowed. Sad reality in so many concrete brains.

It’s TOO simple.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  0  
Sat 26 Feb, 2022 10:03 am
Zelensky is in a military uniform, fighting alongside his army. Amazing.

Nick Knudsen (@NickKnudsenUS) Tweeted:
Zelensky drinking coffee and chatting with his fellow Kyiv defenders this morning.

Imagine what a moral boost it must be for these troops to have the freakin’ president literally fighting next to you.

What a badass. https://t.co/PQPTkoC5bX
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Sat 26 Feb, 2022 10:03 am
Putin’s Aggression Leaves His Right-Wing Fan Club Squirming
Quote:
The Russian strongman has for years been idolized by a Who’s Who of populist, nationalist leaders. They are now stumbling over what to say.

ROME — For years, a global choir of right-wing politicians have sung the praises of Vladimir V. Putin. They looked up to the Russian strongman as a defender of closed borders, Christian conservatism and bare-chested machismo in an era of liberal identity politics and Western globalization. Fawning over him was core part of the populist playbook.

But Mr. Putin’s savaging of Ukraine, which many of his right-wing supporters had said he would never do, has recast the Russian president more clearly as a global menace and boogeyman with ambitions of empire who is threatening nuclear war and European instability.

For many of his longtime admirers — from France to Germany and the United States to Brazil — it is something of an awkward spot. The stain of Mr. Putin’s new reputation threatens to taint his fellow travelers, too.

“It will be a decisive blow to them,” said Lucio Caracciolo, the editor of the Italian geopolitical magazine Limes, who considered Mr. Putin’s invasion an irrational, and potentially, a politically suicidal move. He said that members of the international ultraright who enjoyed a special relationship and financial support from Mr. Putin were “in serious trouble.” “They put all their eggs in the same basket,” Mr. Caracciolo said. “And the basket is collapsing.”

Perhaps no one demonstrates the quandary more than Matteo Salvini, Italy’s leading right-wing politician, who has been an unapologetic Putin fanboy.

He wore shirts with Mr. Putin’s face on them in Moscow’s Red Square and in the European Parliament. He said he preferred the Russian president to the Italian one. He incessantly echoed Mr. Putin’s calls to end the sanctions already on Russia for its annexation of Crimea. He mocked those who alleged he was in Mr. Putin’s pocket by saying, “I esteem him for free, not for money.”

Like some other right-wing leaders, he is now seeking to thread the narrowest of needles by condemning the violence, or even Russia, but not Mr. Putin by name, or condemning the violence but making excuses for it with anti-NATO talking points.

While some of his cohort have admitted that they perhaps assessed Mr. Putin incorrectly, Mr. Salvini has not been ready to make such a concession.

On Thursday, he wrote on Twitter that he firmly condemned “any military aggression,” and then dropped off flowers at the Ukrainian Embassy. He eventually came around to acknowledging that Russia was the military aggressor but still seems to have trouble bringing himself to utter criticism and Mr. Putin’s name in the same sentence.

“I am let down by the human being who, in 2022, tries to solve economic and political problems with war,” Mr. Salvini said in a radio interview. (Mr. Salvini’s spokesman, Matteo Pandini, insisted that he had also said “Putin started a war and so Putin is wrong,” but could not point to where he had said it.)

The Italian finds himself in familiar company when it comes to European leaders who are now struggling to countenance their past support for Mr. Putin with the war of choice he is waging on their continent. The cast of former Putin apologists wrestling with apologies reads like a Who’s Who of the populist ascendancy of 2018.

In France, Mr. Putin’s war has prompted a politically painful, and possibly costly, about-face ahead of presidential elections in April. Far-right candidates who spent years praising the Russian leader and weeks downplaying the risk of an invasion reassessed Mr. Putin and the electoral benefit of being in his corner.

Marine Le Pen, the leader of the far-right National Rally party — which received a loan from a Russian bank — declared Russia’s annexation of Crimea was not illegal and visited Mr. Putin in Moscow before the last presidential elections in 2017. While she opposes NATO, Ms. Le Pen denounced Mr. Putin’s military aggression on Friday, saying, “I think that what he has done is completely reprehensible. It changes, in part, the opinion I had of him.”

Her far-right rival in the presidential campaign, Éric Zemmour, has in the past called the prospect of a French equivalent of Mr. Putin a “dream” and admired the Russian’s efforts to restore “an empire in decline.” Like many other Putin enthusiasts he doubted an invasion was in the cards and blamed the United States for spreading what he called “propaganda.”

But on Thursday he, too, denounced the invasion, saying “Russia was neither attacked nor directly threatened by Ukraine” in a speech given at a lectern that, to make things extra clear, displayed a sign reading, “I fully condemn the Russian military intervention in Ukraine.”

In Britain, Nigel Farage, a key proponent of Brexit, had not believed would invade Ukraine. “Well, I was wrong,” he wrote on Twitter on Thursday, though he maintained that the European Union and NATO had unnecessarily provoked Russia with expansion. “Putin has gone much further than I thought he would.”

Other right-wing forces around Europe have sought to square the circle by condemning the violence, but shifting the blame away from Mr. Putin.

Alexander Gauland, a key figure in Germany’s far-right Alternative for Germany party, known by its German initials AfD, told the daily Neuer Osnabrücker Zeitung on Thursday that the invasion was a “result of past failures” and put the blame on NATO’s eastward expansion after the Cold War for violating “Russia’s legitimate security interests.” Mr. Putin has been more popular in the formerly communist-ruled eastern part of Germany, where the AfD has its political base.

Petr Bystron, a foreign affairs spokesman for the party, visited Moscow with a delegation of its lawmakers last year. He issued a statement in which he “regretted” current developments but added, “We must not now make the mistake of attributing sole responsibility for this development to Russia.”

“It is a sign of their ideological closeness to Putin’s aggressive nationalism,” said Hajo Funke, a prominent German scholar of the country’s far right.

Mr. Putin’s supporters are by no means limited to Europe.

In the United States, former President Donald J. Trump, whose term in office was marked with solicitousness to the Russian leader that confounded his Western allies, said on Wednesday that Mr. Putin was “very savvy” and made a “genius” move of declaring regions of Ukraine as independent states as a predicate to move in the Russian military.

Those remarks left Mr. Trump an outlier in the Republican Party of which he is the de facto leader. But he was not totally isolated.

Mr. Trump’s media cheerleader, the Fox News host Tucker Carlson, urged Americans to ask themselves what they had against Mr. Putin and echoed the Kremlin as he denigrated Ukraine as not a democracy but a puppet of the West and the United States that was “essentially managed by the State Department.” After the invasion, he too moderated, warning of “a world war” and saying “Vladimir Putin started this war, so whatever the context of the decision that he made, he did it.”

The last major leader to visit Mr. Putin before the war, President Jair Bolsonaro of Brazil, who was once told by Mr. Putin that he expressed “the best masculine qualities,” has decided instead to hold his tongue. But he perhaps showed his hand when he rebuked his vice president for saying that Brazil opposed the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

But it was perhaps Mr. Putin’s old friends who seemed most stunned by the attack.

Silvio Berlusconi, the former prime minister of Italy who wore furry hats with the Russian in his dacha in Sochi and received a “big bed” from Mr. Putin as a gift, has condemned the violence but had not said anything publicly about his old pal. It’s not clear whether he had reached out to Mr. Putin, but he apparently told his party’s members in a phone call that he was putting his international relations at the service of peace and the defense of Europe.

“I spoke to Berlusconi last night — he is very worried and is almost terrified by what is happening,” Giorgio Mulè, an under secretary of defense in Mr. Berlusconi’s party, said on Italian radio Friday. He added, “He just doesn’t see in Vladimir Putin the person he’d known.”
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  -2  
Sat 26 Feb, 2022 10:31 am
@snood,
And, of course, the Democrats would have refrained from criticizing Trump, just as they did during the Covid outbreak.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  -2  
Sat 26 Feb, 2022 10:32 am
@snood,
snood wrote:

Former presidents’ reactions to invasion of Ukraine:

Clinton: “A brazen violation”
GWB: “The gravest security crisis on the European continent since World War II”
Obama: “A brazen attack on the people of Ukraine, in violation of international law”
Trump: “He’s taking over a country for $2 in sanctions, I say that’s pretty smart”

Putting words in someone's mouth that he didn't say and then condemning him for them is an invalid argument.
Brandon9000
 
  -2  
Sat 26 Feb, 2022 10:34 am
@Mame,
Mame wrote:

George!! Are you seriously suggesting Trump was a good president? George! Seriously? I get that you're a Republican and you're welcome to it, but you must admit "being a Republican" doesn't mean what it used to. It's not only a fractured party, but it's totally screwed, even you must admit that. And Trump was not even loyal to the Republican party.

I always thought you were smarter than that... this is a huge disappointment to me.

I disagree with everything you've just said. You'll note that under Trump, no ally was invaded, inflation was low, and a vaccine was developed faster than at any time in history. You do know that Trump does have tens of millions of supporters, right?
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  4  
Sat 26 Feb, 2022 10:37 am
@Brandon9000,
Which quote are you saying is inaccurate?
Brandon9000
 
  -3  
Sat 26 Feb, 2022 10:40 am
@engineer,
1. Are you seriously suggesting Trump was a good president?
Yes.

2. being a Republican" doesn't mean what it used to. It's not only a fractured party, but it's totally screwed
No. Fractured, but not screwed.

3. Trump was not even loyal to the Republican party.
This one is true, but why should he be loyal to people he thinks are hurting the party.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  4  
Sat 26 Feb, 2022 10:40 am
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:

snood wrote:

Former presidents’ reactions to invasion of Ukraine:

Clinton: “A brazen violation”
GWB: “The gravest security crisis on the European continent since World War II”
Obama: “A brazen attack on the people of Ukraine, in violation of international law”
Trump: “He’s taking over a country for $2 in sanctions, I say that’s pretty smart”

Putting words in someone's mouth that he didn't say and then
condemning him for them is an invalid argument.


I can easily provide sources. Would that make you admit being wrong here?
Brandon9000
 
  -1  
Sat 26 Feb, 2022 10:42 am
@snood,
snood wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:

snood wrote:

Former presidents’ reactions to invasion of Ukraine:

Clinton: “A brazen violation”
GWB: “The gravest security crisis on the European continent since World War II”
Obama: “A brazen attack on the people of Ukraine, in violation of international law”
Trump: “He’s taking over a country for $2 in sanctions, I say that’s pretty smart”

Putting words in someone's mouth that he didn't say and then
condemning him for them is an invalid argument.


I can easily provide sources. Would that make you admit being wrong here?

I see that you are correct, but I assume that his point was that sanctions are weak, not that he approves of the invasion.
Lash
 
  0  
Sat 26 Feb, 2022 10:44 am
Ukraine is 30 years old. Zelensky was elected by 73% of the popular vote. This war can be equated to our Revolutionary War.

A Ukrainian man died manually detonating a wired bridge because there was no time to do it remotely. I hope the rebuilt bridge will bear his name and his image.
engineer
 
  3  
Sat 26 Feb, 2022 11:00 am
@Brandon9000,
Why would you assume that?
glitterbag
 
  1  
Sat 26 Feb, 2022 11:04 am
@Lash,
That's an interesting thought, but this is an invasion not a revolution. War modes will be changing constantly, and all the civilians can sit back and criticize but the matter will take many paths before it's settled. Frankly it's shocking to me how many Americans are so uninformed and resistant to this matter. We apparently can organize like crazy to avoid health issues to save our 'freedoms', but worry about Ukraine citizens being blown away like dust..........not so much.

I bet there are fewer than 5 people posting who have any sort of military service, most of us are posting about our political likes and dislikes which serves no purpose in a effort to remain free.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Sat 26 Feb, 2022 11:04 am
@Lash,
Ukraine never sold Russia out to the French.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  -1  
Sat 26 Feb, 2022 11:06 am
@engineer,
Because that sounds like what it means to me. Obviously, he's not expressing approval of the invasion and he's previously stated many times that he thinks the sanctions are weak. For as long as I've known his political orientation, Trump and I have agreed about almost everything and that's what I would have meant by it.
 

 
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